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Author Topic:   Clarity of language
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1 of 21 (237159)
08-26-2005 3:06 AM


I don't know where to put this, but I agree with Admin Ben that Robin's discussion of the importance of clear language does not belong on the thread about staying on topic, so I'm starting a new one. I agree with Robin about the importance of avoiding jargon and esoteric language. If there's more to say perhaps it can be said here.
http://EvC Forum: Topic theme awareness!!! -->EvC Forum: Topic theme awareness!!!

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Ben!
Member (Idle past 1398 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 2 of 21 (237161)
08-26-2005 3:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
08-26-2005 3:06 AM


Thanks Faith, you beat me to it.

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 Message 1 by Faith, posted 08-26-2005 3:06 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 3 of 21 (237164)
08-26-2005 3:21 AM


Robin, please come and discuss it here. I think it has many facets related to EvC discussions.
I don't understand your insisting on the validity of off-topic posts in the service of encouraging new ideas, however, as starting a new thread is always an option, and it's not as if we don't have a glut of off-topic posts on every thread as it is.

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by berberry, posted 08-26-2005 3:22 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 7 by robinrohan, posted 08-26-2005 3:43 AM Faith has replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 21 (237166)
08-26-2005 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
08-26-2005 3:21 AM


Great idea, I'll move my post here
in just a sec...

"I think younger workers first of all, younger workers have been promised benefits the government promises that have been promised, benefits that we can't keep. That's just the way it is." George W. Bush, May 4, 2005

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Ben!
Member (Idle past 1398 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 5 of 21 (237167)
08-26-2005 3:22 AM


I agree with Faith and Parasomnium that the vocabulary and concepts used in this forum shoud be broken down and made accessible to the lay person. This forum is for lay people, it is a "popularization" of real issues.
When discussions are filled with technical vocabulary here, it makes it opaque for those outside the field. It's not a matter of 10 minutes or even 1 or 2 hours of reading to get up to speed on these terms. And when some brave soul DOES venture in to ask questions or try and tackle the problem, or TRIES to understand and make responses, this leads to spinning off topic.
So maybe we can all do a better job in making things accessible to each other here. This is a public forum, and the purpose is to publicly discuss things. It's at the lay level.
...
And with that said, I'd like to extend a thanks to many of the scientists who post here that are more than willing to break things down to lay levels. Mick, Wounded King, and Mammuthus come to mind immediately... Quetzal was really good at this too, etc. etc. etc. I think they did a good job of speaking at the lay level where appropriate (and also good at choosing the appropriate times to speak very technically, like when addressing a technical question posed by a colleague).
Ben
P.S. I actually think rr's point is MUCH more idealistic and not related to the issue of being off-topic here (but rather it's about how scientific publication and dissemination of information works), so I'm choosing not to address it here. B

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 21 (237168)
08-26-2005 3:24 AM


Polonius said it best: "Brevity is the soul of wit"
Reading through this and the earlier thread, I'm reminded of the avalanche of words Polonius uses to simply say "Hamlet's gone crazy" in Shakespeare's famous play, and the irony of the speech's most famous line:
My liege, and madam, to expostulate
What majesty should be, what duty is,
Why day is day, night night, and time is time,
Were nothing but to waste night, day and time.
Therefore, since brevity is the soul of wit,
And tediousness the limbs and outward flourishes,
I will be brief: your noble son is mad:
Mad call I it; for, to define true madness,
What is't but to be nothing else but mad?

"I think younger workers first of all, younger workers have been promised benefits the government promises that have been promised, benefits that we can't keep. That's just the way it is." George W. Bush, May 4, 2005

Replies to this message:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 21 (237174)
08-26-2005 3:43 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
08-26-2005 3:21 AM


Faith
Well, Faith, I was irritated--as you often are.

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 Message 3 by Faith, posted 08-26-2005 3:21 AM Faith has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 8 of 21 (237222)
08-26-2005 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by robinrohan
08-26-2005 3:43 AM


Re: Faith
At being told you were off topic? But why NOT go on discussing it somewhere else anyway? It's a point you've brought up before and I think it should have its own thread.

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 Message 7 by robinrohan, posted 08-26-2005 3:43 AM robinrohan has not replied

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 Message 9 by CK, posted 08-26-2005 8:55 AM Faith has replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 9 of 21 (237227)
08-26-2005 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Faith
08-26-2005 8:21 AM


Re: Faith
Yes but there is a big different between clarity and what you like to do faith.
Your version of "clarity" is as follows
hum science uses Word X in the following way - I don't like how word X is defined so i'll use my own version" - To you clarity means "whatever word meaning I like the best".
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 26-Aug-2005 08:56 AM

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 Message 8 by Faith, posted 08-26-2005 8:21 AM Faith has replied

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 Message 10 by Faith, posted 08-26-2005 9:09 AM CK has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 10 of 21 (237230)
08-26-2005 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by CK
08-26-2005 8:55 AM


Re: Faith
Well, lucky for you I started this thread so we could hear Robin's point of view, not mine.

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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 21 (237295)
08-26-2005 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Faith
08-26-2005 9:09 AM


Obscurity of language
My point is that it is possible to express with lucidity the subtlest ideas. There are various types of obscurity. There is deliberate obscurity. This is the pretension of being on the inside of some group, and one is keeping the outsiders in their place. There is unintentional obscurity. In this case, the writer's ideas are vague. He doesn't understand precisely what he wants to talk about.
It is true, of cuurse, that "esoteric" is a relative term. What seems esoteric to one person might not be esoteric at all to someone else. Some of the biological terms I've come across on this forum seem obfuscating to me, but such terms might be like "please" and "thank you" in the circles of those who are using them. I have, however, my doubts.
I have my doubts, and I am rather impatient with someone who says to me--not in so many words of course--"If you don't know my lingo, then you can't talk to me."
Thanks, Faith, for starting this topic.

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 12 of 21 (237399)
08-26-2005 2:45 PM


Re: the use of esoteric vocabulary
In Message 7, robinrohan wrote:
Everyone has their field. The postal clerk has his field. The auto mechanic has his field. I have my field. You have your field. But if we cannot communicate across these fields, we are in trouble. It closes the field off to only those "elites" who are in the field.
Effective communication is hard work. Those who are unwilling to work at it will not easily succeed.
I agree that it is bad to use technical language to excess. But sometimes it cannot be avoided. For example, you cannot fully understand the biological processes involved in evolution without knowing something about meiosis, and how that differs from mitosis. It would be too verbose to fully describe the process every time. It is better to use the technical term when that is appropriate.

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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 21 (237415)
08-26-2005 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by nwr
08-26-2005 2:45 PM


Re: the use of esoteric vocabulary
But sometimes it cannot be avoided. For example, you cannot fully understand the biological processes involved in evolution without knowing something about meiosis, and how that differs from mitosis. It would be too verbose to fully describe the process every time. It is better to use the technical term when that is appropriate.
When you put it that way, it makes me want to try to figure out the difference. I haven't figured it out, but what I mean is that, yes, communication across fields requires effort on both sides.

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 Message 14 by robinrohan, posted 08-26-2005 3:25 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 21 (237419)
08-26-2005 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by robinrohan
08-26-2005 3:20 PM


Meiosis and Mitosis
Something like in meiosis the number of chromosomes get split in half whereas in mitosis the whole thing gets reproduced. Something like that.

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 15 of 21 (237429)
08-26-2005 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by robinrohan
08-26-2005 3:25 PM


Re: Meiosis and Mitosis
Something like in meiosis the number of chromosomes get split in half whereas in mitosis the whole thing gets reproduced.
Yes, that's part of it. Then there is an interesting thing called a crossover that can occur. In effect, genes can move from one chromosome to the other chromosome in that pair. There is mixing up of the genes preparatory to forming the eggs or sperm. Think of it as genetic engineering.

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 Message 14 by robinrohan, posted 08-26-2005 3:25 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
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