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Author Topic:   Creation account does not mention creation OF the planet.
Minnemooseus
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Message 16 of 34 (398868)
05-02-2007 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by whiskey
05-02-2007 11:28 PM


It's still a variation of Young Earth Crationism
Even if your premise of the Genesis story permitting an ancient universe, including the sun and Earth, the details of the completion of the job is still YECism. This is still massively contrary to the worldly evidence. So why does one way or the other make any difference?
By the way, Buzsaw has a somewhat similar Genesis interpretation. Note that that topic is a "Great Debate", with only Buzsaw and Minnemooseus permited to post.
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Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.
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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 17 of 34 (398869)
05-03-2007 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by whiskey
05-02-2007 8:35 PM


Sun, Moon and Stars
Whiskey writes:
The sun, moon, stars, and planet Earth were all here for a long time before the 6 creative days.
You must be partaking some of your namesake
Genesis writes:
4 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights”the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning”the fourth day.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 18 of 34 (398870)
05-03-2007 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by whiskey
05-02-2007 11:28 PM


whiskey writes:
So you agree with me? The Earth was created, then the 6 creative days happen sometime after.
No. According to Genesis 1, the earth was created at the beginning of the first day. It says nothing about anything before the first day.
Hint:
quote:
Gen 1:5 ... And the evening and the morning were the first day.
It says "the first day", period. There were no days before that. Essentially, there was no time before that.

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Doddy
Member (Idle past 5910 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 19 of 34 (398888)
05-03-2007 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by ringo
05-03-2007 12:08 AM


Ringo writes:
Essentially, there was no time before that.
No, time started at "The beginning", not at the first day. There can be time without a cycle of light and dark, can there not?
'Day', according to the bible, is light that is separated from the dark. Before day, there comes darkness. When does day start? With daylight.
Thus, the beginning of the first day was when God created light. This occurred after the creation of the earth. Therefore, one could argue that the earth was created a long time before the first day, with a extended period of 'hovering' or 'brooding' over the waters (or whatever God was doing then).

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 20 of 34 (398902)
05-03-2007 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Doddy
05-03-2007 1:05 AM


Doddy writes:
There can be time without a cycle of light and dark, can there not?
You'll note that there was nothing to "mark" time until the fourth day:
quote:
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
So "days" are not just light separated from dark - they are extrapolated back to the first day. The creation of light on the first day is irrelevant to the time-keeping.
Time started "in the beginning", but there is nothing in the text to suggest that "the beginning" was anything other than the beginning of the first (extrapolated) day.

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Message 21 of 34 (398939)
05-03-2007 4:19 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by whiskey
05-02-2007 11:23 PM


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    Nuggin
    Member (Idle past 2493 days)
    Posts: 2965
    From: Los Angeles, CA USA
    Joined: 08-09-2005


    Message 22 of 34 (398946)
    05-03-2007 4:44 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by whiskey
    05-02-2007 6:47 PM


    How long was the planet here...
    We have no idea how long the planet was here before God started his creative works on the planet.
    Sure we do. God didn't start "creating" until humans evolved language, culture, religeon and finally Judeo-Christian monotheism.
    So the planet was here for about 4.5 billion years before God got started.

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    purpledawn
    Member (Idle past 3458 days)
    Posts: 4453
    From: Indiana
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    Message 23 of 34 (398956)
    05-03-2007 5:16 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by whiskey
    05-02-2007 6:47 PM


    Stretching It
    quote:
    The Genesis account of creation starts with planet Earth already created. We have no idea how long the planet was here before God started his creative works on the planet.
    I think I see what you are trying to argue, but the text doesn't really support what you're saying.
    Both creation stories start with the creation of the planet, they just don't give a lot of details.
    Genesis 1
    1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
    Genesis 2
    4 Here is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created. On the day when ADONAI, God, made earth and heaven,
    So the account of creation doesn't start with the planet Earth already created, it starts with the creation of the planet Earth. Then the authors describe how God made the planet livable.
    I agree that the account doesn't specify how long it took to create the planet before separating the light, but the creation account does mention the creation of the planet.
    What makes you feel that these verses don't mention the creation of the planet?

    "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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    Doddy
    Member (Idle past 5910 days)
    Posts: 563
    From: Brisbane, Australia
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    Message 24 of 34 (398961)
    05-03-2007 7:35 AM
    Reply to: Message 20 by ringo
    05-03-2007 1:23 AM


    Ringo writes:
    So "days" are not just light separated from dark
    quote:
    Gen 1:4 "And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness."
    Gen 1:5 "And God called the light 'Day', and the darkness he called 'Night'. And the evening and the morning were the first day."
    God first separated the night from day, then created the lights to do it.
    Ringo writes:
    Time started "in the beginning", but there is nothing in the text to suggest that "the beginning" was anything other than the beginning of the first (extrapolated) day.
    Actually, I think when it mentions that the morning and evening made the first day, and evening and morning weren't created until after the creation of the Earth, pretty clearly points to the Earth being made before the first day.
    Edited by Doddy, : fixed quote

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    Jon
    Inactive Member


    Message 25 of 34 (398983)
    05-03-2007 10:16 AM


    May I point out that different versions of the Scriptures tell different stories? According to Young's Literal Translation, God was simply 'preparing' an Earth that was already there:
    quote:
    Gen 1:1 -- In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth (2) the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness ... on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,
    So, according to this version of the text, it doesn't start with God creating the Earth. It just tells us that when God started preparing it”making it ready for life, etc.”that it had been there already in waste and void.
    Jon
    Edited by Jon, : Removed the [is] that had been edited in at Bible Gateway; In my opinion, it really shouldn't be there.

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
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    Message 26 of 34 (399001)
    05-03-2007 12:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 24 by Doddy
    05-03-2007 7:35 AM


    Doddy writes:
    God first separated the night from day, then created the lights to do it.
    Exactly. The lights weren't needed to determine the first three days, so why was the light/dark needed to determine the first day?
    The layout of the days is independent of anything that was created - sun, moon or light itself. The timescale was superimposed on the events after the fact.
    ... pretty clearly points to the Earth being made before the first day.
    I don't think it's "pretty clear" at all. I think it's barely plausible but not supported by the text.
    Feel free to point out where the text indicates the beginning of the first day, other than "the beginning".

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    whiskey
    Junior Member (Idle past 6174 days)
    Posts: 8
    Joined: 05-02-2007


    Message 27 of 34 (399021)
    05-03-2007 1:54 PM
    Reply to: Message 26 by ringo
    05-03-2007 12:41 PM


    Lets be honest, Genesis 1:1 does not tell us when "the beginning" was. "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the Earth." Period, next thought. Your making a large assumption that its the beginning of the 1st creative day.
    And light was not the determining factor for days, we're not talking about literal 24 hour days here. In the Bible, a day can represent different time durations. The Hebrew word yohm, translated “day,” can mean different lengths of time. Among the meanings possible, William Wilson’s Old Testament Word Studies includes the following: “A day; it is frequently put for time in general, or for a long time; a whole period under consideration ... Day is also put for a particular season or time when any extraordinary event happens.”
    This last sentence appears to fit the creative “days,” for certainly they were periods when extraordinary events were described as happening. It also allows for periods much longer than 24 hours.
    In Genesis 1:5 God himself is said to divide day into a smaller period of time, calling just the light portion “day.” In Genesis 2:4 all the creative periods are called one “day”: “This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created, in the day [all six creative periods] that God made earth and heaven.”

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    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 28 of 34 (399034)
    05-03-2007 2:13 PM
    Reply to: Message 27 by whiskey
    05-03-2007 1:54 PM


    whiskey writes:
    "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the Earth." Period, next thought. Your making a large assumption that its the beginning of the 1st creative day.
    No. You're making a huge assumption that there's a period there. As I understand it, in the Hebrew there is no period there (or anywhere).
    And light was not the determining factor for days....
    That's what I said: The days that we understand now were superimposed as a timescale.
    ... we're not talking about literal 24 hour days here.
    Again, as I understand it, the Hebrew text does imply literal 24-hour days. We have other threads on that (sorry I don't have time to look them up right now).

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    New Cat's Eye
    Inactive Member


    Message 29 of 34 (399079)
    05-03-2007 5:30 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by whiskey
    05-02-2007 6:47 PM


    The Genesis account of creation starts with planet Earth already created.
    It all depends on how you want to interpret it.
    Why do you choose your interpretation?

    Science fails to recognize the single most potent element of human existence.
    Letting the reigns go to the unfolding is faith, faith, faith, faith.
    Science has failed our world.
    Science has failed our Mother Earth.
    -System of a Down, "Science"
    He who makes a beast out of himself, gets rid of the pain of being a man.
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    whiskey
    Junior Member (Idle past 6174 days)
    Posts: 8
    Joined: 05-02-2007


    Message 30 of 34 (399089)
    05-03-2007 6:09 PM
    Reply to: Message 29 by New Cat's Eye
    05-03-2007 5:30 PM


    Well, the 1st verse looks like a simple statement of fact. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the Earth. In the 1st verse, everything is done, heaven and Earth are created. During the 6 creative days, we're not given details about the creation of the planet, like how the core, mantel, or other aspects. Just creation ON the planet. My point in all of this is that I believe the Earth could be billions of years old. A lot of religious people believe the planet was created in 6, 24 hour, days or 6 thousand years. I'm not convinced that the dating methods available to man are very acurate, I even think they could be very inaccurate. But when a scientist says that the Earth is billions of years old, there is no biblical reason to contradict him.

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