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Author Topic:   The Universal Moral Law & Devolution since the Fall
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 136 of 189 (349914)
09-18-2006 5:53 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by robinrohan
09-15-2006 10:45 AM


Re: two trees
robinrohan:
What is the relationship between the Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?
I have wondered the same thing. A relationship clearly exists.
Certainly both trees have 'Allegory' written all over them, whether one believes that allegory may once have been literalized in physical botanical forms or not. The difference in category is not hard to see.
Which of these doesn't belong?
A. pears
B. figs
C. knowledge of good and evil
D. peaches
And both trees are said to stand at the center of the Garden.
Are they adjacent to one another? Joined at the roots (as some medieval depictions had it)? Are they two fruits of the same tree?
It's worth mentioning that Babylonian creation images show a tree (along with a snake in the tree and a naked couple standing aside) that has four rivers flowing in the four compass directions from a spring in the base of the tree.
.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Clarity.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Typo repair.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by robinrohan, posted 09-15-2006 10:45 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Quetzal, posted 09-18-2006 9:45 AM Archer Opteryx has replied
 Message 139 by robinrohan, posted 09-18-2006 10:41 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 137 of 189 (349915)
09-18-2006 6:02 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by robinrohan
09-17-2006 9:34 PM


Re: two trees.
robinrohan:
I was just wondering why God didn't worry about Adam and Eve eating from the Tree of Life until they ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
I've wondered the same from the human point of view. Why didn't Adam and Eve eat from the Tree of Life before they ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? They must have been kicking themselves for this later.
They were innocents, sure. But you'd think the snake at least would have given them better advice.
_
Of course, the real reason the story comes out this way is because it has to. Human beings know good and evil. But we don't live forever. It's just so.
Gilgamesh, along with other ancient stories, has a similar moment. An individual on the brink of acquiring immortality for humankind blows the opportunity.
.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Punctuation.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Extension.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by robinrohan, posted 09-17-2006 9:34 PM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Phat, posted 09-18-2006 11:00 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 138 of 189 (349940)
09-18-2006 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Archer Opteryx
09-18-2006 5:53 AM


Re: two trees
Trees are a pretty common theme, AFAIK. The Germanic/Norse tribes had Yggdrasil, the World Tree that linked the nine planes. It also guarded three wells (Wisdom, Fate and Water - the latter being the source of all rivers). Finally, it even had resident snakes (sometimes described as dragons) which gnawed at its roots. The most important of these serpents was Nihggr - who is variously held to be the harbinger of Ragnarok, an eater of the dead, or a poisoner of the world. Some interesting parallels, no?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-18-2006 5:53 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 139 of 189 (349950)
09-18-2006 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Archer Opteryx
09-18-2006 5:53 AM


Re: two trees
I have wondered the same thing. A relationship clearly exists.
It sounds to me like the effect of the Tree of Life won't take unless you first eat from the Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil.
Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-18-2006 5:53 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-18-2006 12:12 PM robinrohan has not replied
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 Message 146 by Faith, posted 09-18-2006 2:01 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 140 of 189 (349952)
09-18-2006 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Archer Opteryx
09-18-2006 6:02 AM


Re: two trees.
Of course, one reason why the Tree of Life was off limits to A & E is because had they lived forever once they knew evil, they would have been eternally unable (and at that moment unwilling) to change.
Death brings out the humility in people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-18-2006 6:02 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-20-2006 2:18 AM Phat has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 141 of 189 (349963)
09-18-2006 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by robinrohan
09-18-2006 10:41 AM


Re: two trees
robinrohan:
It sounds to me like the effect of the Tree of Life won't take unless you first eat from the Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil.
Interesting. Can you elaborate?
The catch would be that as soon as you complete the prerequisite from the Knowledge Tree the headmaster expels you from God School before you can get to the Life Tree.
Certainly Adam and Eve's story is iconic: it parallels the life story of everyone. We start out in innocence and enjoy a relative sense of protection as the world seems to smile on us. But there's only one way to know the meaning of one's innocence: one has to lose it. The tree of knowledge of good and evil is a tree everyone eats from at some point in life.
The tree of life? Well, for most people plenty of life remains to be lived at the time we get through that first rite of passage. People leave the garden and start working for a living and making babies, painful moments as these activities often provide. Plenty of life gets ingested and savored, so in that sense we do eat. But the life that remains to be lived is not eternal. So it's a taste only. In the eternal sense the tree would seem to be well guarded indeed.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by robinrohan, posted 09-18-2006 10:41 AM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by jar, posted 09-18-2006 12:47 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 142 of 189 (349966)
09-18-2006 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Archer Opteryx
09-18-2006 12:12 PM


Re: two trees
There is one other symbolic parallel. While we are innocent, as babies are, we are also immortal. Children are unaware of mortality, even after they reach the age where they KNOW right and wrong. It is only after learning something about life, after learning that we should try to do what is right yet will often fail, only after failing itself, that we realize that death actually is both a possibility and a reality.
I think this too is part of the reason that both tales were included. In the younger tale, the creation myth in Genesis 1, there is no mention of death. It is, as I said, a picture of a transcendent GOD, one separate from that which is created. It is a view of the whole, of creation, of the universe, of life. But it is impersonal.
The earlier tales, those that pick up in Genesis 2 and continue, are far more personal. They look at life relationships, things that are missing from the Genesis 1 story. In Genesis 2 & 3 we see the beginnings of awareness, and of limitations that were not found in the other creation myth. While the story in Genesis 1 is perhaps more sophisticated, it is also apart from life as life is lived.
The story is not just of rejection and punishment though. After the passages described as a curse, there is an interesting verse.
21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.
This from the God who had just said:
16 To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."
In that line we see concern, forgiveness, again a personal relationship.
"21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them."
GOD makes garments and GOD clothes them.
GOD does that not for His needs, but to satisfy their needs.
Why then the concern about immortality and how is that related to the Knowledge of Good and Evil?
22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
I believe that it is directly related to knowing right and wrong. Mankind now knew right from wrong, was charged to try to do right, but still also has freewill. Mankind can now choose to do what is wrong. It is this capability, the capability to do wrong that must be limited. How within the constraints of the story can it be limited.
The story tellers had several possibilities, GOD could, one assumes, simply take away free will and make man always do right. GOD could make man simply an automaton. Another possibility for the story teller was to limit the scope, to say that we all will someday die, and the worst we can do is limited.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-18-2006 12:12 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-18-2006 1:24 PM jar has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 143 of 189 (349975)
09-18-2006 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by jar
09-18-2006 12:47 PM


Re: two trees
jar:
The story tellers had several possibilities, GOD could, one assumes, simply take away free will and make man always do right. GOD could make man simply an automaton. Another possibility for the story teller was to limit the scope, to say that we all will someday die, and the worst we can do is limited.
Logical, and poignant.
The storyteller also had the option of portraying God as killing them the same day. It would more literally fulfill his threat about what he would do 'the day you eat of it.' (Note: here's a 'day' in Genesis that God himself doesn't interpret as a 24-hour time period.) But he doesn't do that, either.
.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by jar, posted 09-18-2006 12:47 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by jar, posted 09-18-2006 1:39 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 144 of 189 (349976)
09-18-2006 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Archer Opteryx
09-18-2006 1:24 PM


Re: two trees
The storyteller also had the option of portraying God as killing them the same day. It would more literally fulfill his threat about what he would do 'the day you eat of it.' (Note: here's a 'day' in Genesis that God himself doesn't interpret as a 24-hour time period.) But he doesn't do that, either.
I think that too is intentional. I believe in this case the story teller is most definitely dealing with relationships and in the issue of what mans ultimate connection with GOD will be. We will die, we will be judged and our ultimate fate will be determined by our behavior. It will be tempered but it will be just.
GOD did NOT simply abandon Man. GOD did not remove freewill. GOD did not stop caring and providing for Mans needs.
GOD did not just terminate the experiment.
GOD did provide clothing for Adam and Eve to meet their needs.
GOD did not curse them beyond what they could bear.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-18-2006 1:24 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 145 of 189 (349981)
09-18-2006 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by robinrohan
09-18-2006 10:41 AM


Re: two trees
It sounds to me like the effect of the Tree of Life won't take unless you first eat from the Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil.
The Tree of Life wasn't forbidden to them so most commentators assume they ate freely of it. Then when they disobeyed they weren't allowed to eat of it any more, the idea being that at that point the immortality it either conferred or sustained would have made them like Satan and his fallen angels. Or something like that. I'll look it up and maybe add more to this, but I'm always on borrowed time with my computer freezing up every few minutes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by robinrohan, posted 09-18-2006 10:41 AM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by ReverendDG, posted 09-19-2006 7:11 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 146 of 189 (349984)
09-18-2006 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by robinrohan
09-18-2006 10:41 AM


Re: two trees
18th C. commentator Matthew Henry on the two trees:
quote:
It had two extraordinary trees peculiar to itself; on earth there were not their like. [1.] There was the tree of life in the midst of the garden, which was not so much a memorandum to him of the fountain and author of his life, nor perhaps any natural means to preserve or prolong life; but it was chiefly intended to be a sign and seal to Adam, assuring him of the continuance of life and happiness, even to immortality and everlasting bliss, through the grace and favour of his Maker, upon condition of his perseverance in this state of innocency and obedience. Of this he might eat and live. Christ is now to us the tree of life (Rev. 2:7; 22:2), and the bread of life, Jn. 6:48, 53.
[2.] There was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, so called, not because it had any virtue in it to beget or increase useful knowledge (surely then it would not have been forbidden), but, First, Because there was an express positive revelation of the will of God concerning this tree, so that by it he might know moral good and evil. What is good? It is good not to eat of this tree. What is evil? It is evil to eat of this tree. The distinction between all other moral good and evil was written in the heart of man by nature; but this, which resulted from a positive law, was written upon this tree. Secondly, Because, in the event, it proved to give Adam an experimental knowledge of good by the loss of it and of evil by the sense of it. As the covenant of grace has in it, not only Believe and be saved, but also, Believe not and be damned (Mk. 16:16), so the covenant of innocency had in it, not only "Do this and live,’’ which was sealed and confirmed by the tree of life, but, "Fail and die,’’ which Adam was assured of by this other tree: "Touch it at your peril;’’ so that, in these two trees, God set before him good and evil, the blessing and the curse, Deu. 30:19. These two trees were as two sacraments.
Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by robinrohan, posted 09-18-2006 10:41 AM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-18-2006 2:45 PM Faith has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 147 of 189 (350011)
09-18-2006 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Faith
09-18-2006 2:01 PM


Re: two trees
Henry's wording in the quote you provide is interesting. He says Adam in the Garden could look forward to 'the continuance of life and happiness, even to immortality and everlasting bliss, through the grace and favour of his Maker, upon condition of his perseverance in this state of innocency and obedience.'
His wording does not commit him to the idea of physical immortality on this earth. He seems to be suggesting that Adam and Eve could look forward to living forever with God in heaven (after physical death or a translation as with Enoch and Elijah) because of their innocence.
This idea finds support in what Henry says next: 'This Christ is now to us the tree of life.' Christians, as we know, do not expect physical immortality from their 'tree of life.' They are mortal like anyone else. The life they anticipate is an eternal afterlife that takes the sting of their mortality away.
.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Clarity.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Typo.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Faith, posted 09-18-2006 2:01 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Faith, posted 09-19-2006 10:20 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 148 of 189 (350463)
09-19-2006 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by robinrohan
09-17-2006 9:34 PM


Re: Paul spins another one.
I was just wondering why God didn't worry about Adam and Eve eating from the Tree of Life until they ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
who knows, its a story to explain things, why punish anyone or do anything?
its not that good of a story other than being a good example of what the hebrews thought
my thought is the tree didn't do anything unless you had the knowledge of the gods first

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by robinrohan, posted 09-17-2006 9:34 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 149 of 189 (350468)
09-19-2006 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Faith
09-18-2006 1:54 PM


Re: two trees
The Tree of Life wasn't forbidden to them so most commentators assume they ate freely of it. Then when they disobeyed they weren't allowed to eat of it any more, the idea being that at that point the immortality it either conferred or sustained would have made them like Satan and his fallen angels. Or something like that. I'll look it up and maybe add more to this, but I'm always on borrowed time with my computer freezing up every few minutes.
whats your evidence? an argument from silence? come on faith..
thats an assumption
why does the text have god worrying that they would become immortal in 3:23 if they were able to eat from it freely? why set an angel over it? why not just kill them and start over?
where the heck does it talk about satan?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Faith, posted 09-18-2006 1:54 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Faith, posted 09-19-2006 10:14 PM ReverendDG has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 150 of 189 (350507)
09-19-2006 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by ReverendDG
09-19-2006 7:11 PM


Re: two trees
why does the text have god worrying that they would become immortal in 3:23 if they were able to eat from it freely?
He wasn't worried about their being immortal before they disobeyed, immortality was freely given to them as obedient creatures; after they disobeyed God wanted to protect them from being forever disobedient and alienated from Himself, which would have made salvation through Christ impossible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by ReverendDG, posted 09-19-2006 7:11 PM ReverendDG has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by ReverendDG, posted 09-20-2006 7:58 AM Faith has not replied

  
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