Hyper evolution in the bible

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it doesn't explain the sun standing still for joshua, does it?

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I have asked why it may not have been an event that was involving only the moon and earth, not the whole universe. If it could have, then it was local!

then so was the flood.i'm sorry, end of debate.

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Ha, the old 'end of debate' routine again?Now, as to whether the flood was fairly local, who denies this?! It was the world after all, that got flooded, just as it was the world, (and it's moon) that had a big effect in Joshua's day!
The thing I have said was universal was the seperation of the spiritual, from the physical-or, the 'split'. Sorry you had to end the debate, in such a disgraced manner.This message has been edited by simple, 08-30-2005 11:55 PM

[qs]quote event 1: god declares that human life shall be limited to 120 years.[/quote] No, in no way, that is your opinion. That isn't what it says[/qs]simple, i'm practically quoting here."his days shall be an hundred and twenty years."man will not live longer than 120 years. whether you think that means man as in mankind, total, as a whole, will stop in 120 years, or whether the average human lifespan will be 120 is open for debate.well, actually, it's not. it pretty evidently cannot mean the second -- i don't think there's more than 1 or 2 people in the entire book of genesis that live less than 120 years. besides, all of your sources that you've quoted multiple time say the first. i wonder why. uh. no. no assumption. shem had a kid. his name was arphaxad. again, practically quoting. learn to read. that's an acceptable compromise. it's 98 or 100, but 99 works. yes, that's the verse i just quoted. you're picking an arbitrary date again. why this date? it's not peleg (so you can't justify it with a misreading of the babel story) and it's not 120 years (so you can't justify it with that).in other words, you have no biblical support. at all. no simple, it does not make sense. it doesn't add up. there's nothing in the bible to support, and god is doing FAR bigger things after the flood. 250 years is a normal life span? after having lived another 700? you've gotta be kidding! 950 years is pretty close to 1000. and your 100 year date is even mroe assinine and arbitrary than your peleg date. you don't even have a misreading to support it! so what? if mama sandwich occured during peleg's day, and peleg got old and died at 239, why was noah still kicking that say year at 940? again, circular. you're defending a reading of the bible with the hypothesis supporting it. you can't do that. just cause it all lines up in your simple head doesn't mean that it actually makes to those of us who legitimately study the bible, science, and have some degree of common sense and reading comprehension. yeah? how about the one where god couldn't defeat an army because they had chariots. ooo, outsmarted god on that one! your reasoning makes god out to be impotent, not omnipotent. PROVE it. biblically or otherwise. no, i hadn't noticed. it's not my fault if you think you have no soul, no ability to pray, no personal relationship with your savior, or, heck -- salvation itself. no, these spiritual things just don't exist.sorry! and the government is keeping it a secret.

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yes. stop debating the blindingly obvious. YOU. these are your words, no strawmen here:

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No denying possible, just rejecting, or disbelieving. But all the forces are there to explain the flood,

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Let's see science try to [...] produce a water canopy that could flood the world,

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With the merging of the two in our past, many things were possible, even the flood.

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The flood involved more than the physical,

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So the fact that the bible allows for a spiritual added world, (universe)-where the flood, and the bible can be explained as to why the puny physical only evidence does not always square up, is important.

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This is not possible with only our physical world. What explanation for any of this, not to mention water from the flood coming down from above, to cover the highest mountains! Then being blown dry, clear out of the atmosphere! We know the great wind caused the water to recede, how else could you explain it without the merge?

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Plus with [...] the flood [...] the spiritual was a requirement any way you look at it.

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Nothing else comes close to better explaining the flood, and old lifespans, and merged wonders of the ancient world!

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Yet Noah lived something like 500 some odd years after the flood. Why? In this scenario, because he was born pre split!

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But look at where He caused the devided waters to come down and flood the earth! This is another indication there was more than physical only at work,

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remember, you're whole argument is that the flood WAS not a local event. if it's a local event, well, then it's all local, isn't it? what's to say there ever WAS a merge, or ever WILL BE again? if god can do cool stuff like that in a physical-only universe... well.YOU HAVE NO POINT. find me a bigger act of god in the book. i dare you, you can't. creation? local. salvation? local.oh, also, regarding noah's life-span, fron you:

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Yet Noah lived something like 500 some odd years after the flood. Why? In this scenario, because he was born pre split!

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i hate to break it to you simple, but you've lost. you can't have it both ways -- actually, you can't have it either way. you lose.

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yes. stop debating the blindingly obvious.

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Glad you're starting to see the light.

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remember, you're whole argument is that the flood WAS not a local event. if it's a local event, well, then it's all local, isn't it? what's to say there ever WAS a merge, or ever WILL BE again? if god can do cool stuff like that in a physical-only universe...

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What a strange thing to say. You are missing something here if you think I think the flood was a universal thing? It happened on this world. What the hec are you talking about?!

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find me a bigger act of god in the book. i dare you, you can't. creation? local. salvation?

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You haven't. probably because you cannot, why this prolonging of daylight may not have been at a time when God allowed the axis of the earth to shift? If all that was involved was a shift of axis, or something, why how would you think this was something universal? Even the flood, if as I suspect, water did find it's way into our solar system from earth, and the drying of the flood waters, then this affected more than just earth, and moon!

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oh, also, regarding noah's life-span, fron you:

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Ha, so you dig up some early first impression, or guess, rather than a recent post, where we dig into it in earnest, and see it was a normal post split lifespan!
Have you so lost all ability to mount a seemingly reasonable arguement here, and resorted to purposeful slaurs? Or was this all you ever had, and it just took a while to catch on to you?

that's just the train at the end of the tunnel. no simple, what are YOU talking about. i've been insisting all along that the flood was just a tiny local act performed by god and did not require fundamentally changing the laws of the universe. it was a miracle -- an exception.you're the one that's been arguing against that:

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No denying possible, just rejecting, or disbelieving. But all the forces are there to explain the flood,

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Let's see science try to [...] produce a water canopy that could flood the world,

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With the merging of the two in our past, many things were possible, even the flood.

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The flood involved more than the physical,

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So the fact that the bible allows for a spiritual added world, (universe)-where the flood, and the bible can be explained as to why the puny physical only evidence does not always square up, is important.

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This is not possible with only our physical world. What explanation for any of this, not to mention water from the flood coming down from above, to cover the highest mountains! Then being blown dry, clear out of the atmosphere! We know the great wind caused the water to recede, how else could you explain it without the merge?

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Plus with [...] the flood [...] the spiritual was a requirement any way you look at it.

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Nothing else comes close to better explaining the flood, and old lifespans, and merged wonders of the ancient world!

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Yet Noah lived something like 500 some odd years after the flood. Why? In this scenario, because he was born pre split!

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But look at where He caused the devided waters to come down and flood the earth! This is another indication there was more than physical only at work,

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what justification do you have for your idea if all of the things that support it are just tniy little local miracles? fast growth is nothing compared to a flood. yes, well, i was digging at the time, because you ludicrously did an abotu face, and kept arguing when i just effective proved the point i set out to -- which you now agree with.now you have no legs to stand on, simple. there is nothing that can justify your idea. simple -- you're the one that can't read. you're the one that can't add. you're the one who can't keep consistent logic. you're the one who can't use any kind of logic whatsoever. you're the one who can't mount a reasonable anything -- and just come off sounding like a quack.i don't even know why i'm arguing with you. you obviously want to believe you're right at all costs, even that of the bible, salvation, god's authority, whatever. none of it matters to you.you want so badly to prove that the bible makes sense in some realistic way that you're willing to sacrifice any meaning or validity it has just to support your silly justification of it. you've just sold the baby to buy diapers.

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simple Now this I have got to hear. If the sun stood still in the sky do you understand the problem involved with this?

simple doesn't wanna play with things like logic.he argued, basically, that for the flood to happen there needed to spiritual involvement on such a massive scale that it would justify a complete redefinition of physical and spiritual, where the two are "merged."as you can see, this is NOT a strawman. it's nearly verbatim what he said, but put into a little more sensible terms.he then argues that at some point, the laws of physics or whatever changed as a result of the spiritual separating from the physical, in a "split" and that this occured sometime after the flood, during the days of peleg.he didn't like the argument that he's obviously reading the verse wrong -- peleg's "division of the world" is quite clearly referring to the tower of babel, where the world was divided.so now i've got him stuck. it's quite obvious that stopping the sun in the sky alone is bigger than a flood, but this requires the moon to stop too. it also requires so many fundamental exceptions to the laws of physics -- what happens when the earth stop turning? well, angular momentum would create some problems. i dunno if the force would be enough to toss everything off the face of the planet or not, but it'd certain throw stuff around a bit. the earth's magnetic field would probably shift, since it's created by the difference in speed between the core and the rest of the planet. basically, we're generally talking catastrophe on a global scale. you can't just stop a planet and expect it to work normally.but in joshua, it does. clearly much, much more impressive than a piddly litte flood. and way after his split date. so now he has to say it's a "local" event. an exception -- a miracle. which means that that there's no reason for the flood to require merging realities or whatever.which means he has no leg to stand on.if he thinks about logic for a little while, that's pretty obvious. so logic doesn't sit well with him. nor does consistency, common sense, or reading comprehension apparently.

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i've been insisting all along that the flood was just a tiny local act performed by god and did not require fundamentally changing the laws of the universe. it was a miracle -- an exception.

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It didn't require changing fundamental laws at all, if the flood happened pre split. The change came later, and we live in the changed universe!

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what justification do you have for your idea if all of the things that support it are just tniy little local miracles? fast growth is nothing compared to a flood.

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Already answered, if as I say, the flood was in a merged world, and the split came after.
The rest of your post was just insulting sweet nothings, that try to paint it like you make any sense.

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he argued, basically, that for the flood to happen there needed to spiritual involvement on such a massive scale that it would justify a complete redefinition of physical and spiritual, where the two are "merged."

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No, not at all. All I said was that it looks like the flood happened pre split, still under the merged laws.

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he didn't like the argument that he's obviously reading the verse wrong -- peleg's "division of the world" is quite clearly referring to the tower of babel, where the world was divided.

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Actually it has been somewhat of a mystery, and the interpretation you pick was only one. All I did, was see that the shoe fit, and looked around in science, and the bible to check out if I maybe could be right, or if it need be ruled out. It looks real good!

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so now i've got him stuck. it's quite obvious that stopping the sun in the sky alone is bigger than a flood, but this requires the moon to stop too. it also requires so many fundamental exceptions to the laws of physics

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Obvious in your head maybe. But I didn't do that miracle, God did. He isn't stumped. I am willing to look at what was required, and have perhaps a few ideas, but we are nearing 300 posts here!

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so now he has to say it's a "local" event. an exception -- a miracle. which means that that there's no reason for the flood to require merging realities or whatever

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This doesn't follow. I feel the flood, and drying of the waters, continental sliding, waters coming down from the heavens, etc did need merged conditions, to leave things the way they now are in this PO world. Josh is a seperate issue.

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If the sun stood still in the sky do you understand the problem involved with this?

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Not all that well. But I did ask a question, and haven't seen a clear answer, so as to try to formulate an honest, fact based opinion, and likely method God used, in this PO universe.
The question was, why would more than the earth and moon be involved in this operation? In fact, I think it might be better to stick to just the earth for starters, to keep it simple. How could the earth be affected, so as that the day was longer, and the sun still shine? I also asked if an axis shift may have been a possible explanation?

that's a statement with a qualifier that completely nullifies its meaning. of course it didn't require changing the fundamental laws of the universe, so long as the fundamental laws of the universe were changed! that, i think, is the opposite of a tautology. if such a thing can exist.simple, your entire point is that this merge is a justification for the flood. do i need to post your quotes again? i'll do it. no simple. you're trying to backpedal and make it sound like you make sense.why is the merge necessary for the flood, but not the sun standing still?

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Simple,I am a Bible-believer. I also believe that the Flood occurred and that the earth is fairly young (6000 years old?). That's why my "evc name" is TheLiteralist...it lets people know I interpret the scriptures literally.Having said that (to let you know which side of the fence I am on, so to speak)...Are you arguing that there was a time when the spiritual and physical world's were "merged" such that physical laws were simply different? And that the spiritual and physical realms "split" (indicated by the "division" mentioned in conjunction with Peleg's name)...so that, since then, the physical laws have been as they are today?--JasonThis message has been edited by TheLiteralist, 09-01-2005 01:25 AM

no simple, this is what you said. i'm quoting. i'll bold the really pertinant parts.

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No denying possible, just rejecting, or disbelieving. But all the forces are there to explain the flood,

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Let's see science try to [...] produce a water canopy that could flood the world,

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With the merging of the two in our past, many things were possible, even the flood.

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The flood involved more than the physical,

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So the fact that the bible allows for a spiritual added world, (universe)-where the flood, and the bible can be explained as to why the puny physical only evidence does not always square up, is important.

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This is not possible with only our physical world. What explanation for any of this, not to mention water from the flood coming down from above, to cover the highest mountains! Then being blown dry, clear out of the atmosphere! We know the great wind caused the water to recede, how else could you explain it without the merge?

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Plus with [...] the flood [...] the spiritual was a requirement any way you look at it.

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Nothing else comes close to better explaining the flood, and old lifespans, and merged wonders of the ancient world!

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But look at where He caused the devided waters to come down and flood the earth! This is another indication there was more than physical only at work,

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i can't believe that you are so forgetfully inconsistent that i have to remind you of what your argument is. your argument is that the flood requires more than physical rules, and that neccessitated a "merge." fixed. simple, it's the only logical reading. but you're not about logic, are you? no simple, it does not. it does not look good at all. it does not look it has a single leg to stand on, let alone a foot to put that shoe on. your cinderella is a quadruple amputee.this is not anywhere near a good understanding of science, nor is it a capable reading of the bible. you don't know the first thing about either area. no simple. it's obvious in everybody else's heads that messing with revolutions and orbits of the solar system is quite a gigantic miracle when compared to the flood. the flood's just a bunch of water, and just this planet. this one requires suspending the laws of physics entirely, as well as halting all kinds of inertial forces.it's DAMNED impressive. no, god isn't stumped. YOU are stumped. how did god do that without a merge? hmm? especially when you went on for post after post about a flood needed a merge? ahem. in one post! you just got done saying:

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No, not at all. All I said was that it looks like the flood happened pre split, still under the merged laws.

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in response to me repeating this very argument. you changed your tune within half a dozen sentances! that's some impressive gymnastic ability there!and even still, continents are smaller than planets. water is smaller than planets. heat is more easily dispersed than inertia. the flood is a smaller miracle. only because you want to ignore it, because it doesn't fit this split idea of yours. you have nothing to support this split with. NOTHING. not peleg, who doesn't add up, and not the shortening of lifespan, which doesn't add up either, and not the miracles which are BIGGER.you're done simple. you just need to hold on to a train of thought long enough to realize how inconsistent and idiotic your ad-hoc explanations are.This message has been edited by arachnophilia, 09-01-2005 01:30 AM

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