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Author Topic:   Is Science a Religion?
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 226 of 313 (382512)
02-05-2007 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by Rob
02-05-2007 12:59 AM


Re: Do not fear the magicians of science!
The reason I asked you to put your argument into your own words is because I'm pretty sure you don't understand it. You've been saying all along that science is "incomplete" and that religion is somehow "better" at giving "whole answers".
The clear conclusion from all of your posts is that science is not a religion, yet you seem to be trying to argue that science is a religion.
Show us that you do understand the question. Unboggle your mind for a minute and just list some of the similarities between science and religion. It'll take less time than your lame attempts at cleverness.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by Rob, posted 02-05-2007 12:59 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by Rob, posted 02-05-2007 1:11 AM ringo has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 227 of 313 (382513)
02-05-2007 1:09 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by subbie
02-05-2007 12:53 AM


Re: Pointless analogies.
Here's the problem. This is how adding "information" by mutation works. We begin with a DNA molecule.
That is precisely the problem. Evolution telss us how life became complex by slow processes. Now your telling me that we begin with the most complex molecule in the known universe?
That is precisely why Dean kenyon changed his mind about evolution. I'll be providing that whole argument soon enough. it's worth a whole topic.
And I can see I'm being deluged now. Reply after reply... The prophets of suspiscion have mobilized!
It was simply an error in copying, a mutation.
Life is not a mutation Subbie. If it is, then why not eliminate the weaker for the sake of the stronger?
Why save aids patients? their a drain on the organism of mankind. Let them die!
I don't believe that... but the logical outworkings of your beliefs do. You've got a problem with science cohering with our moral realities under your worldview.
A good worldview would have the two in complete harmony. Unless of course you don't belive in an absolute morality reality, which is again why you should consider eliminating the weaker as did your social darwinist and naturalist predecessors.
Evolution is not absolute Subbie, information is!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by subbie, posted 02-05-2007 12:53 AM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by kuresu, posted 02-05-2007 1:17 AM Rob has replied
 Message 234 by Doddy, posted 02-05-2007 1:20 AM Rob has replied
 Message 236 by subbie, posted 02-05-2007 1:23 AM Rob has not replied

Doddy
Member (Idle past 5910 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 228 of 313 (382514)
02-05-2007 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by subbie
02-05-2007 12:53 AM


Re: Pointless analogies.
subbie writes:
In the second situation, what Johnson et. al. call "new information" has been added. No laws of thermodynamics have been violated. There was no author. It was simply an error in copying, a mutation.
Regardless of whether mutations can or can't add information, selection does add information. After all, information is an exclusion of certain possible states. A letter 'x' can also be said as 'not other letters but x', so when I press the X key, I am excluding the other possible states in order to transfer the information of X into the computer.
So, when something is selected for by natural selection, information from the environment is added to the genome. It really doesn't matter if mutations can or can't add information.
Anyway, this is getting off topic....back to science being a religion or not. Don't respond to me...unless you want to anger a mod!

"Der Mensch kann was er will; er kann aber nicht wollen was er will." (Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills.) - Arthur Schopenhauer

This message is a reply to:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 229 of 313 (382515)
02-05-2007 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by ringo
02-05-2007 1:04 AM


Re: Do not fear the magicians of science!
Been there done that Ringo... You have your mind absolutely set to believe one thing. There is nothing more I can say to you...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by ringo, posted 02-05-2007 1:04 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by ringo, posted 02-05-2007 1:16 AM Rob has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 230 of 313 (382517)
02-05-2007 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by Rob
02-05-2007 1:11 AM


Re: Do not fear the magicians of science!
Rob writes:
Been there done that Ringo...
No you haven't. You've been contradicting yourself throughout the entire thread. This is your chance to redeem yourself.
Just answer the simple question: How are science and religion similar?
You have your mind absolutely set to believe one thing.
You know nothing about my beliefs.
Please stop the stupid speculations and discuss the topic.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Rob, posted 02-05-2007 1:11 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by Rob, posted 02-05-2007 1:22 AM ringo has replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 231 of 313 (382518)
02-05-2007 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by Rob
02-05-2007 1:09 AM


Re: Pointless analogies.
i'm sorry, but what is so complex about a single DNA molecule?
all it consists of is one nitrogenous base, a phosphate, and a deoxyribose sugar. phosphates are common. deoxyribose is a simple sugar. and the nitrogenous bases themselves aren't complex.
and then all you do is put a bunch of them together. nothing really complex about the structure whatsoever.
methinks you're confusing size of, some of the difficulties inherent in building DNA, or with the effects DNA has, with the structure.
Concrete isn't complicated. But the structures it can build can definately be. The same is true of DNA. It's really quite simple. but man can it do a lot.
(oh, and DNA isn't life. and so, evolution is still quite safe from that false argument. don't confuse evolution with abiogenesis again, the latter of which is concerned with how DNA and life came to exist. evolution only looks at the picture once there is life.)
again, the whole thinking thing, rob.

Question. Always Question.
" . . .and some nights I just pray to the god of sex and drugs and rock'n'roll"--meatloaf
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Rob, posted 02-05-2007 1:09 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by Rob, posted 02-05-2007 1:19 AM kuresu has replied
 Message 247 by Rob, posted 02-05-2007 1:47 AM kuresu has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 232 of 313 (382519)
02-05-2007 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by subbie
02-05-2007 1:02 AM


Re: Do not fear the magicians of science!
In other words, you got nothin'!
there is no such thing as nothing Subbie.
I'm not starting all over with you... You'll have to go back and read the thread. I have no doubt you and Ringo will be very happy together. I'm not honlding my breath for a breakthrough. You can belive what ever you want.
Just don't forget to ask yourself 'why' you 'want' to belive what you do. When I did that, I left evolutionary theory behind. Because I only believed it because my culture taught it to me (just as Johnson explained), and it gave me an excuse to live for me.
It's an old religion now Subbie, been part of the doctrine and establishment for decades. A real pressure cooker. And if you question the authorities, you'll be ridiculed as your comment shows.
Scorn away Subbie, I ain't changing my tune. I could care less if I can convince you. God himself couldn't change your mind. you won't let Him!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 233 of 313 (382520)
02-05-2007 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by kuresu
02-05-2007 1:17 AM


Re: Pointless analogies.
i'm sorry, but what is so complex about a single DNA molecule?
all it consists of is one nitrogenous base, a phosphate, and a deoxyribose sugar. phosphates are common. deoxyribose is a simple sugar. and the nitrogenous bases themselves aren't complex.
And how does that compare with the binary complexities of our computer operating software?
It's more than twice!
You do the math...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by kuresu, posted 02-05-2007 1:17 AM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by Doddy, posted 02-05-2007 1:23 AM Rob has not replied
 Message 238 by kuresu, posted 02-05-2007 1:23 AM Rob has not replied

Doddy
Member (Idle past 5910 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 234 of 313 (382521)
02-05-2007 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by Rob
02-05-2007 1:09 AM


Re: Pointless analogies.
Rob writes:
Evolution is not absolute Subbie, information is!
And yet, these symbols that we are writing in, and the laws of our grammar, would be incomprehensible to a Chinese farmer. If I convert it to binary, and show it to the average person on the street, they will not understand it either.
Regardless of how absolute the information is, there is no absolute way to get your information from one person to another, but only relative ways.

"Der Mensch kann was er will; er kann aber nicht wollen was er will." (Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills.) - Arthur Schopenhauer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Rob, posted 02-05-2007 1:09 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 235 of 313 (382523)
02-05-2007 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by ringo
02-05-2007 1:16 AM


Re: Do not fear the magicians of science!
You know nothing about my beliefs.
Why don't you tell us...
You don't have to... when Jesus tells me everything I need to know. I am on a need to know basis with my Lord.
John 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by ringo, posted 02-05-2007 1:16 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by ringo, posted 02-05-2007 1:26 AM Rob has replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 236 of 313 (382524)
02-05-2007 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by Rob
02-05-2007 1:09 AM


Re: Pointless analogies.
Why save aids [sic] patients? their [sic] a drain on the organism of mankind. Let them die!
I don't believe that... but the logical outworkings of your beliefs do. You've got a problem with science cohering with our moral realities under your worldview.
That's not a "logical outworking," assuming I even understand what that odd phrase means. At most the conclusion you can draw is that the ToE says that those with AIDS will tend to pass fewer of their genes on to their offspring. There is no logical way to argue from that point that we ought to let that happen. It's one of the simplest concepts in logic that you cannot reason to "should" from "is."
That a fact exists says absolutely nothing about whether that fact is good. If your own personal morality leads you to conclude that everything that happens ought to happen, that's considerably more frightening than any of the utterly absurd misunderstandings you've displayed about science and religion.
I have no problem whatsoever with science cohering with "moral realities." I accept completely the fact that science will discover things that we think are not as they should be. And there's no reason why it shouldn't. Science deals strictly with what is, not what should be. That, perhaps, is the biggest thing that separates science from religion.
A good worldview would have the two in complete harmony. Unless of course you don't belive in an absolute morality reality, which is again why you should consider eliminating the weaker as did your social darwinist and naturalist predecessors.
Social darwinists got it every bit as wrong as you do here, and for the same reason. They tried to argue that since that's the way it is, that's the way it should be.
I really don't know why you think it's appropriate to lumps naturalists in that group, unless you know something about all naturalists that nobody else does.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Rob, posted 02-05-2007 1:09 AM Rob has not replied

Doddy
Member (Idle past 5910 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 237 of 313 (382525)
02-05-2007 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by Rob
02-05-2007 1:19 AM


Re: Pointless analogies.
And how does that compare with the binary complexities of our computer operating software?
It's more than twice!
You do the math...
Binary is the simplest way of transmitting information. So, a genetic code of A, C, G and T is twice as complex as the most simple method.
So the math: 2 x simple ≠ most or very complex

"Der Mensch kann was er will; er kann aber nicht wollen was er will." (Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills.) - Arthur Schopenhauer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Rob, posted 02-05-2007 1:19 AM Rob has not replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 238 of 313 (382526)
02-05-2007 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by Rob
02-05-2007 1:19 AM


Re: Pointless analogies.
the argument you were making doesn't stand. reason? evolution, the theory, has squat to say about abiogenesis. you said, the problem is that evolution is now saying we're starting with the most complex molecule ever known. it's not the most complex structure, biologically or molecularry (yeah, can't spell that word) that we know of.
evolution doesn't even start with DNA alone. it starts with life! don't confuse abiogenesis with evolution. you've done it twice now in a short period of time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Rob, posted 02-05-2007 1:19 AM Rob has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 239 of 313 (382527)
02-05-2007 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by Rob
02-05-2007 1:22 AM


Re: Do not fear the magicians of science!
Rob writes:
You know nothing about my beliefs.
Why don't you tell us...
Because the topic isn't about my beliefs, it's about the similarities and/or differences between science and religion.
Why are you afraid of the topic? Why are you afraid to answer a simple question about the tiopic? If Jesus is so full of answers, ask Him.
Just give us something other than empty-headed preaching.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Rob, posted 02-05-2007 1:22 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Rob, posted 02-05-2007 1:31 AM ringo has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 240 of 313 (382528)
02-05-2007 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by Doddy
02-05-2007 1:20 AM


Re: Pointless analogies.
And yet, these symbols that we are writing in, and the laws of our grammar, would be incomprehensible to a Chinese farmer. If I convert it to binary, and show it to the average person on the street, they will not understand it either.
Regardless of how absolute the information is, there is no absolute way to get your information from one person to another, but only relative ways.
The concepts are the same... logic is logic!

This message is a reply to:
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