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Author Topic:   God and the blind Tailors
RevCrossHugger
Member (Idle past 5352 days)
Posts: 108
From: Eliz. TN USA
Joined: 06-28-2009


Message 61 of 135 (513690)
07-01-2009 5:03 AM


lost armor plated domes
Not contemporary and there is no mention of Jesus.
Care to try again. Remember, I am looking for contemporary, extra biblical evidence, not apologetics.
Ha ha this should be called the skeptical atheists forum! Now after reading all the disagreements and aversions to commonly accepted sources etc I see that there is no use in attempting to change any minds here, they are sealed, locked and boxed. Additionally, there is no way that I can answer five or six members, all requiring a good measure of font. The font is special font as well, it has to be armor piercing to get through all the hate of Christianity here that is thicker than the frontal armor of a tiger tank.
As for cut and pastes, I attempt to give members some intellectual credit and don’t think I need to give sources for commonly known information such as the extra biblical writing of roman historians. However I will do so in the future for reasons now very evident. Along the same vein of reasoning, I am sure you are aware that Christ or Christus (Tacitus) etc is Jesus. Yes I am aware it means oil or anointed one (generally speaking).With all due respect you would be laughed out of existence if you attempted to say otherwise, ie that christus wasn’t Jesus in any academic or professional venue etc.
I am not going to waste my and your time defending accepted facts. Christ is Jesus. The Christians mentioned in the early roman’s historians writings are the followers of Christ, which is evident upon reading the texts. You do the same thing you accuse me of when the posted attempts to discredit these writings are accomplished using atheist apologetic sources. (owee! that cut is from that double edged blade of a double standard that seems to exist here, at least in this thread!)
And what in the world do you mean the roman historians documents were written by Christian apologists? They were secular roman historians that risked much by even mentioning Jesus CHRIST (ie christus, the anointed one).
Lastly I know by rote all the feeble rebuttals from atheists hopefuls, they are useless and an affront to anyone’s except for middle school students intellect, so I won’t waste time in that area as well. Contemporary ? Well its contemporary enough. Remember there was no CNN or instant messages, nor scribes standing there writing as events unfolded. I am getting fairly fed up with the innuendos and challenges to my creditability as well. So remember to keep any personal remarks out of any correspondence that is meant for me.
Have a nice Godly day. Oh one more thing. As said before with so many responses I will not be able to answer all, so seeing that there are no active traditional Christians here that care to stand up for their faith, (or have they been banned?) the atheists and other skeptics here may have to stand around in a circle and um’ pat each other on the back “.
; {>
Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given.
Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given.
Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given.
Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given.
Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given.
Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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RevCrossHugger
Member (Idle past 5352 days)
Posts: 108
From: Eliz. TN USA
Joined: 06-28-2009


Message 62 of 135 (513691)
07-01-2009 5:17 AM


What does on topic mean?
How did my thread get hijacked? Please stay on topic. In fact I request that if the usual suspects want to discuss the historical Jesus you start another thread and get back to discussing the original thread topic. I have debated the Jesus thing in other forums so often that its terribly boring. I grow weary of the atheists web sites that are held up with sources and then a few replies back see the same member complaining that only christian apologists web sites support this or that. Really! It reeks of a double standard.
Oh well nothing is new eh?
Remember Jesus loves you and I am trying to.
; {>
When Selfish Gene author Richard Dawkins challenged physicist John Barrow on his formulation of the constants of nature at last summer Templeton-Cambridge Journalism Fellowship lectures, Barrow laughed and said, “You have a problem with these ideas, Richard, because you aren't really a scientist. You're a biologist
Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given.
Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by purpledawn, posted 07-01-2009 6:45 AM RevCrossHugger has replied
 Message 64 by Brian, posted 07-01-2009 6:50 AM RevCrossHugger has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 63 of 135 (513699)
07-01-2009 6:45 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by RevCrossHugger
07-01-2009 5:17 AM


Re: What does on topic mean?
quote:
How did my thread get hijacked?
Actually, you hijacked your own thread. You let it go off topic Message 52. If you can't hold yourself in check, why whine about others?
You spent more time "laughing" making rude personal comments instead of seriously addressing the various thoughts provided concerning your analogy in the OP.
If you can't handle the scholars, then get back to talking with us common folk.
As I said in Message 55, you don't actually know how many gods there are. You accept what your religion has decreed, just as others accept what their religion has decreed and still others are religion free.
You have nothing to show that there is without a doubt only one god and not many gods. Christianity may just be lumping them all together for the sake of simplicity.
As has been asked earlier in this thread by others, what makes your religion right other than you are comfortable with it?
So the options are no god, one god, or many gods.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by RevCrossHugger, posted 07-01-2009 5:17 AM RevCrossHugger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by RevCrossHugger, posted 07-01-2009 6:52 AM purpledawn has replied
 Message 66 by RevCrossHugger, posted 07-01-2009 6:52 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 64 of 135 (513702)
07-01-2009 6:50 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by RevCrossHugger
07-01-2009 5:17 AM


Re: What does on topic mean?
No one has hijacked your thread.
Your claim is that the Jesus 'suit' fits God better than any other 'suit', we are just pointing out that the Jesus suit is still at the tailors.
If you would like to chat at a decent academic level you can email me at bj25 le ac uk. I know forums are not the ideal way to improve our knowledge so I too would welcome the opportunity to discuss my research conclusions.
Edited by Brian, : spelling and url format

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by RevCrossHugger, posted 07-01-2009 5:17 AM RevCrossHugger has not replied

  
RevCrossHugger
Member (Idle past 5352 days)
Posts: 108
From: Eliz. TN USA
Joined: 06-28-2009


Message 65 of 135 (513703)
07-01-2009 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by purpledawn
07-01-2009 6:45 AM


Re: What does on topic mean?
Actually, you hijacked your own thread. You let it go off topic Message 52. If you can't hold yourself in check, why whine about others?
Why complain? Because its my thread? Yes that's it! I may of 'let it go off topic, but I did not derail it. I am not a moderator, if I were I would said something earlier. So again please stay on topic. Or feel free to start another thread and beat the Jesus thing some more until you and the usual atheist and secular suspects are satisfied.
I am tired of going over the same thing again and again and again like some kind of redundant energizer bunny beating his little furry head against a wall of Christian hate speech.
;{>
When Selfish Gene author Richard Dawkins challenged physicist John Barrow on his formulation of the constants of nature at last summer Templeton-Cambridge Journalism Fellowship lectures, Barrow laughed and said, You have a problem with these ideas, Richard, because you aren't really a scientist. You're a biologist
Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given.
Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by purpledawn, posted 07-01-2009 6:45 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by purpledawn, posted 07-01-2009 9:29 AM RevCrossHugger has not replied

  
RevCrossHugger
Member (Idle past 5352 days)
Posts: 108
From: Eliz. TN USA
Joined: 06-28-2009


Message 66 of 135 (513704)
07-01-2009 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by purpledawn
07-01-2009 6:45 AM


Re: What does on topic mean?
delete double post
When Selfish Gene author Richard Dawkins challenged physicist John Barrow on his formulation of the constants of nature at last summer Templeton-Cambridge Journalism Fellowship lectures, Barrow laughed and said, You have a problem with these ideas, Richard, because you aren't really a scientist. You're a biologist
Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by purpledawn, posted 07-01-2009 6:45 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 67 of 135 (513722)
07-01-2009 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by RevCrossHugger
07-01-2009 5:03 AM


Re: lost armor plated domes
Ha ha this should be called the skeptical atheists forum!Along the same vein of reasoning, I am sure you are aware that Christ or Christus (Tacitus) etc is Jesus.
Did you even read the link and evidence?
I am not going to waste my and your time defending accepted facts.
Accepted by people indoctrinated in the faith.
They were secular roman historians that risked much by even mentioning Jesus CHRIST (ie christus, the anointed one).
Evidence please. What does this even mean?
Lastly I know by rote all the feeble rebuttals from atheists hopefuls, they are useless and an affront to anyone’s except for middle school students intellect, so I won’t waste time in that area as well.
But you can't provide evidence against it.
Contemporary ? Well its contemporary enough.
Seems to be lots of contemporary evidence for historical people. Lame argument.
I am getting fairly fed up with the innuendos and challenges to my creditability as well. So remember to keep any personal remarks out of any correspondence that is meant for me.
WTF?
Have a nice Godly day. Oh one more thing. As said before with so many responses I will not be able to answer all, so seeing that there are no active traditional Christians here that care to stand up for their faith, (or have they been banned?) the atheists and other skeptics here may have to stand around in a circle and um’ pat each other on the back “.
Classic christianist response. Can't back the argument so run away.
So you freely admit there is no extra biblical, contemporary evidence for the existence of Jesus?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by RevCrossHugger, posted 07-01-2009 5:03 AM RevCrossHugger has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 68 of 135 (513724)
07-01-2009 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by RevCrossHugger
07-01-2009 6:52 AM


Re: What does on topic mean?
quote:
Why complain? Because its my thread? Yes that's it! I may of 'let it go off topic, but I did not derail it. I am not a moderator, if I were I would said something earlier. So again please stay on topic.
Maybe you should have taken the time to get your feet wet in existing topics and getting to know the community before taking on the responsibility of your own topic.
What was the point in opening a thread if you don't want to deal with different or opposing ideas?
quote:
I am tired of going over the same thing again and again and again like some kind of redundant energizer bunny beating his little furry head against a wall of Christian hate speech.
My posts contained no Christian hate speech, so why not answer the questions or issues I raised? You put forth the idea that all religions worship the same god whether they know it or not. The only thing you keep repeating is that you're a Christian and monotheistic. IOW, because you're a Christian you believe as a Christian. Big surprise!
Your opening post still leaves the options of no god, one god, or many gods. You have not provided a line of reasoning that would explain why one option is any more valid than the other.
Pity, this could have been a really interesting discussion.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by RevCrossHugger, posted 07-01-2009 6:52 AM RevCrossHugger has not replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 69 of 135 (513741)
07-01-2009 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by RevCrossHugger
06-28-2009 7:25 PM


Re: coming of age
Hi Rev, and please pardon my delay in reply; I've been busy.
quote:
I could say I am going to go on a killing spree ordered by Granny. Would that make granny a murderer?
If I had put forward a religious text exhorting people to kill heretics, then yes, it certainly would do. The simple truth is that if a modern British Muslim were to make a statement like Leviticus 24:16;
And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death.
he would be charged with incitement to terrorism and locked up.
Now none of this would matter if you weren't suggesting that millions of virtuous heathens, all over the world, were actually worshipping your god. A god who is content to be worshipped in many guises but who encourages his followers to kill those who choose the wrong one, makes no sense at all.
quote:
This seems like a strange attitude for a single-yet-plural god such as the one you describe.
Thank you I like strange, normal is boring and mundane. Kurt Godel was very strange but his genius was second only to Einstein.
I was trying to be polite, but if you insist upon my spelling it out for you, okay then, not strange. Psychotic. Warped. Hypocritical.
Either God is content to be worshipped in other guises, in which case, he could not have authorised the hate speech in the OT;
or
God is not content to be worshipped in other guises, in which case your views are no different to those of monotheist fundamentalists.
If the former, why should we trust the Bible that has got things so badly wrong? If the latter, what is the point in even discussing things?
quote:
The authors got nothing wrong. The main message is that you must believe in God. Secondly the message is that you should accept Jesus Christ as a Christian and repent. Those two messages have made it, so the authors have done their job.
You are dodging the issue. The OT makes clear and unambiguous statements encouraging the slaughter of blasphemers and heretics.
Now if you are claiming that God is content to be worshipped in other guises, then this makes the Bible quite astonishingly wrong about something very important. How can this be and why should we trust such an unreliable source?
If you are suggesting that God is not content to be worshipped in other guises, then your views are no different from those of any common or garden Christian fundamentalist and I see no value in pursuing them.
quote:
I think you misunderstood at least part of my post. I believe the Hebrew/Christian religion. And I use many evidences to support my beliefs,
Hmm, we seem to be going off-topic a little here. Never mind your evidence for the primacy of Christianity, I would like you to just answer my main question;
Is your god content to be worshipped in different guises?
Mutate and Survive

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by RevCrossHugger, posted 06-28-2009 7:25 PM RevCrossHugger has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Brian, posted 07-02-2009 2:51 AM Granny Magda has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 70 of 135 (513845)
07-02-2009 2:51 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Granny Magda
07-01-2009 11:38 AM


Rev Bailed?
Has the good Rev bailed out of the kitchen?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Granny Magda, posted 07-01-2009 11:38 AM Granny Magda has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Phat, posted 07-02-2009 8:38 AM Brian has replied
 Message 79 by Theodoric, posted 07-02-2009 9:38 AM Brian has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 71 of 135 (513862)
07-02-2009 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Brian
07-02-2009 2:51 AM


Re: Rev Bailed?
We have him out by the lake making Holy Water. Our supply had dwindled as we had an unusual number of Demons to melt.
Seriously, Brian! How are your classes going? Tell us a bit about what you do and what course titles you teach. It may prove enlightening for the Levites among us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Brian, posted 07-02-2009 2:51 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Brian, posted 07-02-2009 8:54 AM Phat has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 72 of 135 (513865)
07-02-2009 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Phat
07-02-2009 8:38 AM


Re: Rev Bailed?
Hi Phat,
At the moment im studying for my M.A. in Archaeology and Ancient History at Uni of Leicester. To make ends meet I have taken on a high school job teaching Religious, Moral, and Philosophical Studies. The higher philosophy is good, the other topics (Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Morality in the Modern World) are a bit routine but I'm sure I'll jazz them up a bit. I am creating a Judaism unit for the school, which will begin August 2010, so I have got a lot on my plate at the moment.
I was going to go back to University of Glasgow to tutor Intro to Old Testament as Literature but the hours on offer were too few.
But the archaeology is going well, I have really enjoyed it so far.
What about yourself, still living in the dark?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Phat, posted 07-02-2009 8:38 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Phat, posted 07-02-2009 9:01 AM Brian has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 73 of 135 (513866)
07-02-2009 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by RevCrossHugger
06-28-2009 3:51 PM


One Question For Rev
purpledawn writes:
Your opening post still leaves the options of no god, one god, or many gods. You have not provided a line of reasoning that would explain why one option is any more valid than the other.
Opening Post by Rev writes:
I think religions are only attempts to assign attributes to the creator of the universe. We all worship the same God whether we know it or not! What I mean by that kind of blasphemous statement is best understood by a metaphor. Imagine a model (God) is being fitted for a suit of clothes (the religions) by freshmen student tailors at the local university.
Well after a few days all the students have their suites (religions) ready of the model (God) to try on. None fit perfectly, but some are nearly perfect. And the worst ones are like a potato sack! Well of course being a Christian I feel that my students suit fit’s the very best! The cut and style is nearly perfect.
So you see even though the other religions do not describe God more closely they are not as right as my religion is. I choose the Hebrew God (rather God chose me). I hope this makes some sense, although it won’t solve many problems perhaps it will shed some light on my beliefs.
Let me get this opening post straight. Can I rephrase it so as to best understand it?
  • quote:
    We all worship the same God whether we know it or not.
    Evidently you are a monotheist.
  • quote:
    Imagine a model (God) is being fitted for a suit of clothes (the religions) by freshmen student tailors at the local university.
    Thus these students are evidently also monotheists, as they are attempting to define God, rather than various gods.
    Personally, I believe that there is one God. I believe that Jesus Christ was fully human while on earth and had no exclusive power apart from what God gave Him. God utilized Jesus as a human representation of His character. To me, Trinitarianism confuses the issues somewhat.
    Granny Magda writes:
    More than any other kind of religious belief, your kind of god is dependent on pure faith and your personal desire for a benign deity.
    True. I will admit that God is essentially unknowable due to His complexity. If God exists,(which I believe He does) He is more than the explanation that our imaginations offer. The beauty of Jesus is that He made the process of understanding God easier. It is possible to fully know a human.
    RevCrossHugger writes:
    Don't get me wrong the bible is not a science book nor a history book etc, its a primarily manual on how to save ones soul, and a book to help the human race understand God.
    A couple of questions. Our souls need saving because why, again?
    Who do they need saving from?

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 5 by RevCrossHugger, posted 06-28-2009 3:51 PM RevCrossHugger has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 74 of 135 (513868)
    07-02-2009 9:01 AM
    Reply to: Message 72 by Brian
    07-02-2009 8:54 AM


    Off topic sidenote to Brian
    Brian writes:
    What about yourself, still living in the dark?
    I hang out in chat talking with jar on an almost endless repetitive basis. My beliefs have been challenged somewhat, and I am afraid to let go of many of my preconceptions, but I have come to believe that if God exists, it does not matter much anyway. If God is evil, none of us have a chance anyway, and if God is good, we still have no chance at true free will.
    To go out on a limb, if God does not exist, I figure that I still need to try and do my best every day. Some days are better than others, however.
    Edited by Phat, : changed title to more accurately reflect intention

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 72 by Brian, posted 07-02-2009 8:54 AM Brian has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 76 by Brian, posted 07-02-2009 9:05 AM Phat has replied

      
    DevilsAdvocate
    Member (Idle past 3101 days)
    Posts: 1548
    Joined: 06-05-2008


    Message 75 of 135 (513869)
    07-02-2009 9:05 AM
    Reply to: Message 45 by RevCrossHugger
    06-30-2009 9:16 AM


    Re: Not another drone?
    RevCrossHugger writes:
    I had to do that to get out of seminary, at least I have a paper that tells everyone that is the case. Maybe you should write the Dean at Milligan and tell him I am masquerading as a graduate of his school? Of course that would be slander.
    Milligan college is not a Bible seminary; Milligan is primarily a 4 year Christian liberal arts college with a few graduate programs (MBA and a MEd but no theology graduate degrees). There is a seminary across the street called Emmanual School of Religion which is loosely associated w/ Milligan but is not financially or academically tied to it. Besides you specifically stated writing the Dean of Milligan College NOT Emmanual School of Religion. That is not an oversight, that is an outright lie.
    I am skeptical you went to either school.
    You see. I did attend Milligan in 1992 (and my father attended Emmanual). So which year did you suposedly attend and what degree did you get? And yes I know your name since it is plastered all over other forums on the internet, but I will not disclose it here.
    BTW, I do have access through Milligan to contact previous alumni.
    OR would you like to retract your statement?
    BTW it would be libel (written) not slander (verbal) as shown here:
    Media Law Resource Center writes:
    In order for the person about whom a statement is made to recover for libel, the false statement must be defamatory, meaning that it actually harms the reputation of the other person, as opposed to being merely insulting or offensive.
    The statement(s) alleged to be defamatory must also have been published to at least one other person (other than the subject of the statement) and must be "of and concerning" the plaintiff. That is, those hearing or reading the statement must identify it specifically with the plaintiff.
    The statement(s) alleged to be defamatory must also be a false statement of fact. That which is name-calling, hyperbole, or, however characterized, cannot be proven true or false, cannot be the subject of a libel or slander claim.
    The defamatory statement must also have been made with fault. The extent of the fault depends primarily on the status of the plaintiff. Public figures, such as government officials, celebrities, well-known individuals, and people involved in specific public controversies, are required to prove actual malice, a legal term which means the defendant knew his statement was false or recklessly disregarded the truth or falsity of his statement. In most jurisdictions, private individuals must show only that the defendant was negligent: that he failed to act with due care in the situation.
    A defamation claim -- at least one based upon statements about issues that are matters of public interest -- will likely fail if any of these elements are not met.
    Can you prove that my suspicion of your credibility constitutes libel? If not than stick it.
    Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
    Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
    Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

    For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
    Dr. Carl Sagan

    This message is a reply to:
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