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Author Topic:   Purgatory
Jackie
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 33 (255599)
10-30-2005 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by DorfMan
10-29-2005 9:38 PM


Re: Correct Catholic View on Salvation and Purgatory
Thank you.
Isn't it funny how things have been passed down?
Do you think the Catholic church borrowed these teachings,honestly, how does this happen?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by DorfMan, posted 10-29-2005 9:38 PM DorfMan has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 17 of 33 (255613)
10-30-2005 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Jackie
10-30-2005 8:54 AM


Re: Correct Catholic View on Salvation and Purgatory
There does seem to be much Biblical support for the concept of Purgatory as yet another of the mercies of GOD. You can read about the Roman Catholic point of view in the Catholic Encyclopedia
The idea is also reflected in many of the Protestant churches in the concept of Middle State, a period of instruction, reflection and renewal where someone can review their life and repent sins. It's an additional opportunity for someone finally faced with ultimate reality to change and grow.
Do you think the Catholic church borrowed these teachings, honestly, how does this happen?
Christianity has always borrowed from other peoples, other religions. The Creation Myths in Genesis, the story of a flood, Moses in the Bullrushes to Paul adopting the Unknown God are all examples of Christianity borrowing other teachings. Easter and Christmas are but celebrations from other peoples that were adopted and modified by Christianity.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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DorfMan
Member (Idle past 6081 days)
Posts: 282
From: New York
Joined: 09-08-2005


Message 18 of 33 (255770)
10-31-2005 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Jackie
10-30-2005 8:54 AM


Re: Correct Catholic View on Salvation and Purgatory
quote:
Thank you.
Isn't it funny how things have been passed down?
Do you think the Catholic church borrowed these teachings,honestly, how does this happen?
Jesus said that he is the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE. To me that means it is his way, his truth, and his life. Neither of the three can be modified and still remain his way, his truth, his life. Substitutions do not carry, or Narnia could be acceptable, etc.
I recommend a good book by a respectable author on the history of the catholic church. Your librarian will be able to help you with this, or do a search on line. The following link can help you get started.
http://mbrem.com/bible/traditn.htm
Purgatory is part of sacred tradition. Sacred tradition is NOT part of sacred scripture, which the RCC allows. It is for the individual to determine whether or not to follow the word of God or the word of man, having previously accepted the scriptures as the word of God. If you doubt the all-powerful God's ability to inspire his creatures to lay down his words as is fitting to him, then scripture is meaningless, and you may follow your own heart's desire.

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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 19 of 33 (256011)
11-01-2005 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by RC Priest
09-18-2005 10:14 PM


Re: Correct Catholic View on Salvation and Purgatory
RC Priest writes:
This is what Purgatory can be. The Church’s catechism states that it has not determined whether it is a place or a process or both. The point is though that purification takes place, and all Christian’s believe this. Catholics calls this Purgatory.
This is a complex subject so if anyone wishes further detail on certain elements of my post, then please say so. If not, view this as a brief response correcting the misconceptions about the faith/works controversy, as well as an intro to the subject of Purgatory.
I found your post informative. In some ways the idea of purgatory makes me think of CS Lewis's allegory "The Great Divorce".Basically I hear him saying that it is the sin of focusing on the love of self to the detriment of the love of others that separates us from God.
As humans, when we talk about purgatory we are unable to describe it in terms that don't involve space and time. If some how we could think outside of space and time, then purgatory could well be consistent with either teaching.
My time as a Christian has always been in a protestant church but I find it hard to be critical of a church that numbers among its adherents Mother Theresa and Jean Vanier. I think it is important that we listen to each other and see what we can learn from each other.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

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DorfMan
Member (Idle past 6081 days)
Posts: 282
From: New York
Joined: 09-08-2005


Message 20 of 33 (256089)
11-01-2005 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by GDR
11-01-2005 11:11 AM


Re: Correct Catholic View on Salvation and Purgatory
quote:
My time as a Christian has always been in a protestant church but I find it hard to be critical of a church that numbers among its adherents Mother Theresa and Jean Vanier. I think it is important that we listen to each other and see what we can learn from each other.
To find others in need of a Saviour as you are and as I am, commendable, takes your eyes off the Christ who alone is worthy of your admiration and emulation. I imagine you have not spoken to either of those you cite and don't know the objections they may have to the teachings of their church. Befriending a priest or religious may be of service to you. An intimate conversation and your view of adherents will change. The church is filled with broken hearts and souls in some confusion.
Spoken in care, never in criticism, always in Christ and only him.

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tsig
Member (Idle past 2909 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 21 of 33 (256110)
11-01-2005 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by CK
09-08-2005 1:52 PM


purgatory=purge
purgatory is where you go to get your sins burned off.
Then you can go to heaven.
Guess you'll appriciate it more than those who made it directly.

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inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6082 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 22 of 33 (285992)
02-12-2006 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by jar
10-30-2005 10:18 AM


Re: Correct Catholic View on Salvation and Purgatory
Christianity did not borrow anything from anyone. Evidence for a univesal flood is avilable from amny cultures which did not even know anything about Christianity. Christianity began only 2004 years ago. About 5000 years ago, there was one piece of land extending from South Africa upto Philippines going down as low s the South pole. They all spoke one language, Tamil which is as old as Greek and Hebrew. It was a great civilization. History of this literature states that there was a huge flood and the entire Geography of landscape changed. This happened about 5000 years ago. This flood was not an isolated event. This was universal. This flood caused all the fossils to appear. Still there is no missing link.

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inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6082 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 23 of 33 (285993)
02-12-2006 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by jar
10-30-2005 10:18 AM


Re: Correct Catholic View on Salvation and Purgatory
Christianity did not borrow anything from anyone. Evidence for a univesal flood is avilable from amny cultures which did not even know anything about Christianity. Christianity began only 2004 years ago. About 5000 years ago, there was one piece of land extending from South Africa upto Philippines going down as low s the South pole. They all spoke one language, Tamil which is as old as Greek and Hebrew. It was a great civilization. History of this literature states that there was a huge flood and the entire Geography of landscape changed. This happened about 5000 years ago. This flood was not an isolated event. This was universal. This flood caused all the fossils to appear. Still there is no missing link.

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 33 (286003)
02-12-2006 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by inkorrekt
02-12-2006 4:53 PM


Re: Correct Catholic View on Salvation and Purgatory
quote:
Christianity did not borrow anything from anyone.
Well, except for the bit about a god being born of a virgin to be a sacrifice for the world. And the part about the Supreme Being being an omnipotent, omniscient, perfect being.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 25 of 33 (286048)
02-12-2006 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Chiroptera
02-12-2006 5:30 PM


Re: Correct Catholic View on Salvation and Purgatory
And the concept of "Satan"
We must also not forget that the terms "Savior" and "Salvation' were political statements, because those are the terms that Ceasar Agustus gave himself, being the 'divine son of God', who 'brought salvation to the roman empire'.

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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 26 of 33 (286053)
02-12-2006 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by ramoss
02-12-2006 10:27 PM


Re: Correct Catholic View on Salvation and Purgatory
Christianity "borrowed" the concept of "Satan?" From whom?
1Ch 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel... Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them... Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it... Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? ...Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? ...Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath [is] in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand ...Psa 109:6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand. ...Zec 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. ...Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: [is] not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
I suppose "Savior" and "salvation" had political implications, all right, but they were directly taken from the Old Testament too, just as "Satan" was also in the OT, not manufactured for the purpose if that's what you are implying. God Himself calls himself the Savior in many passages. And you of course deny it, but The Messiah was prophesied to BE God Himself in the flesh, so to call Him the Savior was simply in keeping with the ancient prophecies.
This message has been edited by Faith, 02-12-2006 11:33 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by ramoss, posted 02-12-2006 10:27 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 27 of 33 (286054)
02-12-2006 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Chiroptera
02-12-2006 5:30 PM


Re: Correct Catholic View on Salvation and Purgatory
Christianity did not borrow anything from anyone.
Well, except for the bit about a god being born of a virgin to be a sacrifice for the world. And the part about the Supreme Being being an omnipotent, omniscient, perfect being.
This is off topic, as was Ramoss' post, which I just answered, but I think it needs some explanation. I know of no other religion where any god was actually born of a virgin. The "virgin" was no longer a virgin by the time of the birth -- or the conception for that matter.
And how does one "borrow" the idea of an omnipotent omniscient perfect God who was known to all people at one time?
This message has been edited by Faith, 02-12-2006 11:44 PM

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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 28 of 33 (286090)
02-13-2006 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Faith
02-12-2006 11:37 PM


Let's take this to new topic
I find this subject so interesting that I nearly followed it off-topic.
Let's instead move the discussion to a new topic..
This message has been edited by Omnivorous, 02-13-2006 10:04 AM

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This message is a reply to:
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 29 of 33 (286245)
02-13-2006 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Faith
02-12-2006 11:29 PM


Re: Correct Catholic View on Salvation and Purgatory
Actually, the terms used in the New testament are directly the latin terms used by Ceasar AUgustus. The hebrew translations into Latin (and then english) was sort of retrofitted.. and whne there were multiple words to use with similar meanings, 'salvation' and 'savior' were chosen, even if they were not the best fit for the Hebrew.
The Jewish faith got the concept of Satan and dualism from the Persians.
And no, the 'messiah', according to the Jewish texts, was not supposed to be 'god made flesh'. That was a Christian concept that came from the Greek gentil converts. The Jewish expectation for the Messiah was just a man who would kick the foreign invaders out, and become a home grown king over Israel.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Faith, posted 02-12-2006 11:29 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 30 of 33 (286250)
02-13-2006 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by ramoss
02-13-2006 5:16 PM


Re: Correct Catholic View on Salvation and Purgatory
This off topic topic is being pursued in a new threadand I answered you at this post there
This message has been edited by Faith, 02-13-2006 05:43 PM

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