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Author Topic:   Was the Hebrew God unique?
deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2893 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 16 of 53 (331581)
07-13-2006 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Brian
07-13-2006 2:41 PM


Re: Certainly not AK, dunno about AP
Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"
God didn't know where they were hiding.
And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"
God didn't know who told them they were naked AND He didn't know if they had ate the fruit or not.
God didn't know or he was asking questions with an educational purpose? I think one could make the case for either. God also asked Cain where his brother Abel was and it seems pretty clear he knew where he was. How many times does a teacher ask a student a question as a part of "educating" him? Happens all the time. In fact, it is a recognized teaching method - the Socratic Method.

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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2893 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 17 of 53 (331584)
07-13-2006 5:00 PM


Did the Hebrews make unique claims for Yahweh?
I can see that the AP and AK stuff is not quite everything I am trying to get at here. Did the Hebrews make greater claims for Yahweh than the other tribes made for their tribal Gods? Did they see Yahweh as being a universal God? Certainly the Flood story seems to suggest that. Does the "Chosen People" part suggest otherwise?
Edited by deerbreh, : typo

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CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 18 of 53 (331587)
07-13-2006 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by deerbreh
07-13-2006 4:53 PM


Re: Certainly not AK, dunno about AP
But what's the educational purpose? "don't fuck with me and get the hell out of my garden?"
Does such a creature sound interested in education?

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 19 of 53 (331588)
07-13-2006 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by deerbreh
07-13-2006 5:00 PM


Re: Did the Hebrews make unique claims for Yahweh?
Again you seem to be asking two different questions, whether the Hebrews saw thier God as Universal, the One God, and whether the idea of a Universal God was unique.
For the former, the answer is that for most of the OT the Hebrews did not see God as either universal or as the only God. He was their God, and in their eyes, certainly first among equals.
As to the later question, almost every religion has examples of their God being universal in some fashion where it is Neptune stiring the seas or Atum creating order from chaos.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2893 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 20 of 53 (331610)
07-13-2006 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by jar
07-13-2006 5:18 PM


Re: Did the Hebrews make unique claims for Yahweh?
Again you seem to be asking two different questions, whether the Hebrews saw thier God as Universal, the One God, and whether the idea of a Universal God was unique.
Yes. Exactly.
For the former, the answer is that for most of the OT the Hebrews did not see God as either universal or as the only God. He was their God, and in their eyes, certainly first among equals.
Again I agree. A big part of the problem, in fast was that Yahweh was a "jealous" God and the Hebrews did not seem to "get that". They kept whoring after other gods every time Yahweh turned around.
As to the later question, almost every religion has examples of their God being universal in some fashion where it is Neptune stiring the seas or Atum creating order from chaos.
Here I am less certain. I would certainly agree that Islam sees Allah as a universal God but Islam is after all, a fairly recent development and could be seen as having borrowed a lot from some OT texts, no?
Edited by AdminJar, : fix code

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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2893 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 21 of 53 (331611)
07-13-2006 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by CK
07-13-2006 5:10 PM


Re: Certainly not AK, dunno about AP
But what's the educational purpose?
The educational purpose is to justify God's behavior in punishing them, yes - to assist them in seeing the error of their ways. The Hebrews seemed to take pains not to see Yahweh as being a capricious god. That is why the book of Job is so disturbing, imo. Look at the way Yahweh "bargained" with Lot about Sodom and with Jonah about Ninevah.

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Omnivorous
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Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 22 of 53 (331625)
07-13-2006 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by jar
07-13-2006 3:45 PM


Re: AP (all powerful) and AK (all knowing) God?
jar writes:
It realy never happens in the Bible. Remember that all we get are glimpses of how God is seen by given people or peoples at particular moments. The idea of all seeing, all knowing, all powerful and with all foreknowledge is a fairly modern one and while often simply tossed out there, one that I have never seen supported without creating a God of cruelty and denying free will.
Jar, I recall an evening a few months ago when you, spidey, and me discussed whether the OT expressly depicted God as AP and AK--we couldn't come up with a verse that strong. Maybe someone else can?
I see the claim that Genesis could only be describing a universal God. But if omniscience and omnipotence are implied by myths of a creator god, then all religions with a cosmogyny pass that test: if Genesis implicitly signifies a universal God, so does every other creation myth.
I also think it is unwarranted to deny polytheistic religions' place in this discussion, since there is almost always a boss/creator/elder god, and the Book faiths have diverse semi-divine beings.
It appears the emergence of ever-bigger boss men in human societies co-evolved hand-in-hand with religion complexity. Like any sensible social mammal, as our communities grew more complex, we grew bigger bosses.
Maybe we grew bigger gods, too, to explain and endorse the hierarchy of church and state, eventually needing a God big enough to match the ambitions of empires.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 23 of 53 (331631)
07-13-2006 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Omnivorous
07-13-2006 8:19 PM


On the Hebrew God and other gods.
I think we do need to keep in mind that when we are talking about gods, hebrew, biblical christian or otherwise we are talking about the human perception of GOD by that people in that era and not really about GOD.
The God of Genesis 2 & 3, and in other places in the OT, is very much like Zeus or other Gods of the folk at around that time, around that location. He is a very human character, walks around and talks with folk, is somewhat bumbling, makes mistakes, works on trial and error. He is super-human, but simply bigger and smarter and more powerful, but still with weaknesses and foibles.
The God of Genesis 1 is quite different, transcendant, sure, moving without error or hesitation through the acts of creation, then stopping, resting and admiring what had been done.
But we have to acknowledge that what we are looking at is not GOD but just how a particular people at a particular time saw their God.
I also think it is unwarranted to deny polytheistic religions' place in this discussion, since there is almost always a boss/creator/elder god, and the Book faiths have diverse semi-divine beings.
Absolutely. And we also need to remember that for most of the Old Testament we are looking at a polytheistic world. Even the Hebrews believed in other Gods, feared and respected them.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 24 of 53 (331633)
07-13-2006 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by deerbreh
07-13-2006 12:51 PM


After reading many things on omnicient and omnipotent god, i found that christianity and judeasim was effected largely by greek philisophers as well as zoroastrianism and over time god changed from a local god that the hebrews took as thier own into a god of the omni's
many other religions changed yehwah over time, being that like people have said he was pretty much like a lot of the local gods, right up until the exile or a bit before, zoroastrianism altered the way they thought of god - instead of being the origin of good and evil he became only of good and never evil, it also changed the perception of the power yehwah has from a local god to a god of infinite power, as well as making him the only god
to add to this the hebrew god isn't really unique, he changed from one point to another depending on the times and the problems with his believers, he even differs from the books of the bible, look at the differences between god in exodus and job, job seems closer to the god in genesis 2 than the god in exodus
Edited by ReverendDG, : No reason given.

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 25 of 53 (331712)
07-14-2006 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by CK
07-13-2006 5:10 PM


Re: Certainly not AK, dunno about AP
I personally think the story is about 'will you come clean and admit you did something wrong, and try to do better, or will you hold onto your deception' type of thing.

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CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 26 of 53 (331768)
07-14-2006 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by ramoss
07-14-2006 9:34 AM


Re: Certainly not AK, dunno about AP
but... if he's all-knowing he already knows the answer and therefore does not need to ask the question.
But of course he needs to ask the question to start off a particular chain of events - or he justs like to fuck with people's heads.

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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2893 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 27 of 53 (332012)
07-15-2006 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by jar
07-13-2006 8:50 PM


Re: On the Hebrew God and other gods.
Jar writes:
But we have to acknowledge that what we are looking at is not GOD but just how a particular people at a particular time saw their God.
Yes. And that is why if we get caught up in the textualist trap of "What was God saying here?" we really miss the more interesting (imo) question about the Hebrew view of Yahweh and how it may have been different than/similar to the view of the supernatural of other ancient peoples. Your perception of the difference between God the creator of Genesis 1 (trancendant) and God the keeper of the Garden of Eden of Genesis 2 and 3 is correct, imo. An even more interesting situation occurs in the Gospel of John, where God is referred to as "Abba", which I think is Greek, and literally means "daddy", at least so I have been told by a pastor friend. I don't know if this "daddy" appelation for God occurs anywhere else in the OT or the NT but it certainly conveys a different message than "father". Of course God is also likened to a mother eagle (Deut. 32:11), so it is obvious that even with the Hebrews, there was some latitude in viewing God.
Edited by deerbreh, : No reason given.
Edited by deerbreh, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 28 of 53 (332014)
07-15-2006 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by deerbreh
07-15-2006 3:46 PM


Re: On the Hebrew God and other gods.
"Abba" is Hebrew and Aramaic.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 29 of 53 (332017)
07-15-2006 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Faith
07-15-2006 3:51 PM


Re: On the Hebrew God and other gods.
Faith writes:
"Abba" is Hebrew and Aramaic.
Actually I think Abba is Swedish.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 30 of 53 (332028)
07-15-2006 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by jar
07-15-2006 4:02 PM


Abba, Father
A Jewish correspondent of mine has sent me rabbinical commentaries with the word "Abba" in them so I've taken in to be a Hebrew word. I can ask him about it. But meanwhile, it is clearly an Aramaic word, and it is the word for addressing a father, not implying the baby talk "daddy."
Abba (?a)
Mark 14:36
And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
Abba, an Aramaic word (written ?a in Greek, and 'abba in Aramaic), is immediately followed by the Greek equivalent (?at??) with no explicit mention of it being a translation.
The phrase Abba, Father is repeated in Romans 8:15 and Galatians 4:6.
Language of Jesus - Wikipedia

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