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Author Topic:   War on Christmas
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3676 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 30 of 245 (372103)
12-24-2006 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Lithodid-Man
12-16-2006 8:44 AM


I'm so glad I live in a country where people cheerfully say 'Merry Christmas' to friends who smile appreciatively and return the greeting--even though nearly everyone involved is Buddhist or agnostic.
God bless Taiwan.
And Merry Christmas to all!
___
Edited by Archer Opterix, : brev.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Lithodid-Man, posted 12-16-2006 8:44 AM Lithodid-Man has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Lithodid-Man, posted 12-25-2006 4:51 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3676 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 32 of 245 (372185)
12-25-2006 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Lithodid-Man
12-25-2006 4:51 AM


Re: Merry Christmas to you too, Lith
The Thai way makes a lot of sense to me. Count me in.
Joyous Yuletide--and thanks, Lith, for sharing.
__

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Lithodid-Man, posted 12-25-2006 4:51 AM Lithodid-Man has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3676 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 104 of 245 (373710)
01-02-2007 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by anastasia
01-01-2007 9:31 PM


All in the Family
anasasia:
I would prefer if you also do not use the term 'Judeo-Christian-Islamic God' because to claim that all of those religions worship the same God is clearly false.
On the contrary: it's clearly true. They all worship the Creator God of Genesis, who is also the promise-making God of Abraham, the law-giving God of Moses, the warmaking God of Joshua, and the kingmaking God of Saul, David, and Solomon--the God whose center of worship is traditionally located in Jerusalem and whose people trace their religious ancestry to the culture of the Middle East.
That's a lot to have in common.
Where these three world religions differ is not in the deity they revere, but in the standing they grant to various persons and texts that claim to speak for this deity. Do angels really exist? Has the Messiah come yet? Is Yeshua that person? Did Paul of Tarsus have special knowledge of God's will? Is Mohammed the special messenger? Do Popes have special knowledge of the divine will? Did Joseph Smith? Does a Sunni cleric? You see.
It's tempting, when someone else's beliefs about one's favorite deity offend one, to say the offender has distorted the picture of the divine so much that the result is a new, strange, alien (read 'false') deity.
But that's just the kind of polarization that sets in whenever family members have squabbles. Family members having heated arguments with each other say things like 'You're no brother of mine!' But the genetic facts and the shared history don't change. To observers outside the squabbling family it is very apparent that all parties in it are related.
___
Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo repair.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : punctuation.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by anastasia, posted 01-01-2007 9:31 PM anastasia has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3676 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 112 of 245 (373771)
01-02-2007 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by anastasia
01-02-2007 4:53 PM


Re: All in the Family
anastasia:
Jesus is the God of Judeaism?
This is tap dancing.
Jesus attributed all his actions to the Father. That Father was the God of Abraham. As you know.
One can always use the differences that exist between the religions--and they are different religions--to try to deny the relationship that exists between them.
But the relationship exists. Judaism, Christianity and Islam share a common origin--textually, culturally, historically. They all claim to monotheistic. They all identify the one God with the God of Abraham and Moses, David and Elijah.
This family relationship is an obvious point--especially to anyone who is literate about faiths outside these three.
Your original comment was that these three religions 'clearly' worship different Gods. The subsequent discussion suffices to show that, on the contrary, such an assertion is far from 'clear.' So regardless of the opinion one holds, the initial point stands refuted.
__

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by anastasia, posted 01-02-2007 4:53 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by anastasia, posted 01-02-2007 5:42 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3676 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 116 of 245 (373786)
01-02-2007 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by anastasia
01-02-2007 5:36 PM


Re: patriotism to which values?
anastasia:
IIRC the 'self-evident truths' are those things which are to be considered universal values NOT American, christian or whatever else. ALL men are equal, and have the same rights.
Does that match up to the teachings of Jesus? I will be vague. Yes.
Jesus is not literally preaching a poliical philosophy based on reason that won't appear for another millennium and a half, no. But the idea of the social contract is compatible with, and owes something to, Christ's teaching about treating another as you would be treated, yes.
The idea of rights also squares nicely with ideas promoted in ancient Athens and Rome, by Buddha, Socrates and Lao Tze, by Lessing and Mendelssohn, by the Celts and indigenous North American peoples. So in that sense we can certainly speak of 'universal' values being recognized in the Jeffersonian idea of democracy.
___

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by anastasia, posted 01-02-2007 5:36 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by anastasia, posted 01-02-2007 6:14 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3676 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 120 of 245 (373792)
01-02-2007 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by anastasia
01-02-2007 5:42 PM


Re: All in the Family
anastasia:
Showing the common origin of the three is not proving they now worship the same God.
No one mentioned proof. You can't prove whether people in two different but related faiths are praying to 'the same God' or not. How would you know this?
The best you can do is go by is what they say. All three religions--Judaism, Christianity and Islam--claim to worship the same God. They agree about his general identity, nature and creative power. They identify him with the I AM who spoke to Moses. They part company over subsequent developments concerning his messengers.
All images of the divine are necessarily imperfect. The issue you raise is this: How imperfect can a picture be before it is no longer a picture of the ultimate reality? And how would one know?
Imperfection does not prevent a picture from signifying something true. All religions are imperfect, just as all are related in some way. Their pictures of the divine spring, at bottom, from the same source. Some pictures are more closely related to each other, even derived from one other. Other pictures are more distantly related.
How divergent can pictures be before they represent different deities? It's a continuum. No one can prove the boundary. No one can, as you say, 'rule out the possibility' of identity.
The only way to settle it would be to ask God. 'Do you feel like all these people are talking to you? Or do you feel like some of them misunderstand you so badly that they seem to be talking to someone else?'
Then God can tell you what she thinks. And you'll have your proof.
Until then you canonly deal with canons and claims. You're back where you started. Family relationships you can see. Same God? Well, that's what the books and the adherents tell me. Does God agree? No proof.
___
Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by anastasia, posted 01-02-2007 5:42 PM anastasia has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3676 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 122 of 245 (373796)
01-02-2007 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by anastasia
01-02-2007 6:14 PM


Re: patriotism to which values?
anastasia:
Sure I am not proposing that Jesus is the secret author of the Constitution, but I did want to slow down the claims that there is some huge difference between Christian values and American values.
Understood. A discussion like this can ping-pong. It's not hard to find details that overlap or details that diverge, then argue from there. One person cites a detail where the two systems of thought are similar, another cites a detail where they are not. The glass is half empty, the glass is half full--and around you go.
On the grandest scale I would just note some key differences exist in orientation. Christ's teachings are based on the idea of self-sacrifice. The social contract is based on the idea of enlightened self-interest. For Christ, law comes down from above. In a democracy, law results from discussions among citizens. For Christ, the God of Judaism is everybody's God. In a democracy, religious freedom is for everybody. Matters about religion (even whether to have one) are private.
___
Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by anastasia, posted 01-02-2007 6:14 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by anastasia, posted 01-02-2007 6:58 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
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