Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Why Would God Care?
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 136 of 217 (391130)
03-23-2007 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by ringo
03-23-2007 4:24 PM


Re: Lust
the question is: Why?
The answer is: So we won't hurt ourselves.
This presupposes God caring. If he doesn't, what does it matter to him if we hurt ourselves?

"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by ringo, posted 03-23-2007 4:24 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by ringo, posted 03-23-2007 5:09 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 137 of 217 (391138)
03-23-2007 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Heathen
03-23-2007 4:32 PM


Re: Lust
Creavolution writes:
Well I believe this thread is based upon the biblical, Christian God. So I'm not sure what's to be gained from moving outside that realm.
I am outside that realm. I'm just sticking my head in the door to discuss it with you.
But, for the purposes of this thread we have made assumptions.
I don't make collective assumptions.
As far as I know, the only assumption of this thread is that there is a God who somewhat resembles the Biblical God. I have said nothing that violates that assumption.
The answer is: So we won't hurt ourselves.
You mean the chisel slipping as we make our graven images?
Yup.
or the adulterer slipping as he climbs out his neighbours window after a bit of coveting?
Or the neighbour splitting the adulterer's skull with a cleaver.
Or perhaps the child who gets a whack for not honouring his mum and dad?
Or the child who gets a whack from a bully, or the bully who gets a whack from the principal or the principal who gets fired by the School Board.
Show us something we are told not to do that is arbitrary, that has no personal consequences.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Heathen, posted 03-23-2007 4:32 PM Heathen has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 138 of 217 (391141)
03-23-2007 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Dan Carroll
03-23-2007 4:33 PM


Re: Lust
Dan Carroll writes:
This presupposes God caring. If he doesn't, what does it matter to him if we hurt ourselves?
As I said, the Artist puts a lot of effort (and a lot of Himself) into his creation. He doesn't want it to self-destruct.
Other than that, He doesn't care.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Dan Carroll, posted 03-23-2007 4:33 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 139 of 217 (391225)
03-23-2007 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Dan Carroll
03-23-2007 12:28 PM


For what it's worth, Dan, I, nor Zhimbo, were at all confused by the opening post.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Dan Carroll, posted 03-23-2007 12:28 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 140 of 217 (391226)
03-23-2007 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by New Cat's Eye
03-23-2007 2:59 PM


quote:
Show me where a religion says that you should avoid a behavior soley because god decrees it.
Er, Judaism?
The laws of Kashrut come to mind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-23-2007 2:59 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 141 of 217 (391237)
03-24-2007 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Phat
03-21-2007 7:07 AM


Re: Remix
In post 51
Phat writes:
We don't really know what is important to God,
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Acts 17:27 (KJS) That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
John 3:16 (KJS) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
God so loved...
He gave ...
That we might seek Him and find him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 03-21-2007 7:07 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 142 of 217 (391243)
03-24-2007 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by ringo
03-23-2007 12:47 PM


Re: Does God Claim to Care?
Ringo writes:
That seems to fit the "jealous God" scenario - He wants us to bask in His glory instead of "enjoying ourselves" without Him. Seems a tad insecure, too.
I don't think believers will want to go there.
I do.
Lets presuppose that God does care about our well being. God is so complete...so much a source of comfort, love, and energy...that He foreknows that it is to our best interests to hook up with Him. His way is the best way by default.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by ringo, posted 03-23-2007 12:47 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by ringo, posted 03-24-2007 1:52 AM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 143 of 217 (391246)
03-24-2007 1:52 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Phat
03-24-2007 1:42 AM


Re: Does God Claim to Care?
Phat writes:
God is so complete...so much a source of comfort, love, and energy...that He foreknows that it is to our best interests to hook up with Him.
That doesn't even remotely approach the neighbourhood of what I said.
Where's the jealousy? Where's the insecurity? Are they part of His "completeness"?
His way is the best way by default.
What's the point of free will if we're not free to choose the second-best way?
And how does touching Jimmy deviate from the "best way" anyway?

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Phat, posted 03-24-2007 1:42 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Phat, posted 03-24-2007 7:38 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 144 of 217 (391271)
03-24-2007 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by ringo
03-24-2007 1:52 AM


Re: Does God Claim to Care?
Ringo writes:
That doesn't even remotely approach the neighbourhood of what I said.
Where's the jealousy? Where's the insecurity? Are they part of His "completeness"?
Phat writes:
Are we talking about jealousy from Gods perspective or from human perspective? Besides, if God were truly insecure, He never would have allowed anything other than the best path.
What's the point of free will if we're not free to choose the second-best way?
Phat writes:
I agree.
And how does touching Jimmy deviate from the "best way" anyway?
Phat writes:
Thats between Jimmy and God. If Jimmy were my son, I would simply remind him to wash his hands before dinner.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by ringo, posted 03-24-2007 1:52 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by ringo, posted 03-24-2007 12:49 PM Phat has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 145 of 217 (391277)
03-24-2007 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Heathen
03-23-2007 3:54 PM


Lust and Coveting
Well Ringo covered much of what I would have said.
(Now I know what woke me up last night. Ringo in my mind.)
So I'll try to cover what he didn't.
Today, lust means any strong or excessive desire. The proper word in the OT also seems to carry that meaning, but the NT carries the meaning of desire for what is forbidden.
Today, covet means to feel eager or inordinate desire for something belonging to another. In the OT covet simply means desire, but in the NT althought it means desire it is used with the meaning of desiring what is forbidden.
As Ringo alluded to, God is concerned with actions and not thoughts.
God did not say we could not covet (desire). If you look closely at Exodus and Deuteronomy you will find that God was specific about what one was not supposed to desire. Essentially we are not to desire what belongs to another.
So Paul (who is not God) makes a statement that we are not to desire what is forbidden.
Now back to the OP. If the young boy is desiring a married woman not just fantasizing, then that falls under one of God's prohibitions and there are deeper meanings to the purpose of this law, but beyond the scope of this thread.
The act of masturbation is not forbidden by God, the desire for something that belongs to another is.
So in the NT lust and covet seem to carry about the same meaning, but that isn't where God handed down laws.
quote:
If a christian chooses to base their life on the bible it seems unreasonable that they should cherry pick or interpret as they see fit. The "Word of God" fast looses any authority.
It really is no different than what people do on a daily basis.
Some choose to follow laws, rules, guidelines, to the letter. Others pick and choose. Some stop at all stop lights, signs, etc., but have no problem running five miles or more over the speed limit.
Some claim every penny they earned on their taxes, others don't mention the cash they received for mowing a neighbors lawn all summer.
Why do you expect religious people to act differently than secular?
The religious person gets words of wisdom from their holy writings and the secular person may get words of wisdom from the Reader's Digest as could the religious person.
quote:
As Dan has said, If the bible (the Word of God) advises against an action or forbids an action we can only assume God cares whether or not we do it.
the question is: Why?
Why does advising against an action assume caring?
How much do our law givers care about us individually? What is the purpose of our laws? (These are rhetorical questions)
God may have simply taken on the task of guiding the Hebrews because he found them interesting or possibly needy.
In the OT God handed down laws for a specific civilization. In the NT Jesus dealt with teaching the individuals of that specific civilization how to abide by those laws.
You can't understand the ocean if you only stand on the beach and view the surface. Some Christians only see the surface.

Why does someone believe you when you say there are four billion stars, but check when you say the paint is wet?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Heathen, posted 03-23-2007 3:54 PM Heathen has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 146 of 217 (391305)
03-24-2007 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Phat
03-24-2007 7:38 AM


Re: Does God Claim to Care?
Phat writes:
Are we talking about jealousy from Gods perspective or from human perspective?
Since we're human... what choice do we have?
Suppose a married woman "touches herself". Might her husband conceivably be jealous? Might he feel inadequate?
If the bride of Christ can do without Him in one area or another, does that make Him feel inadequate?
That seems to be the position that some Christians take: God "cares" about us to the extent that He wants us blinkered in His direction all the time. We can't do anything on our own, can't have any time away from Him, can't have any friends that aren't His friends too.
From a human perspective, we'd call that an abusive relationship.
...if God were truly insecure, He never would have allowed anything other than the best path.
I'm not sure what "truly insecure" means.
But if He was "truly secure", wouldn't He have faith in His creations? Wouldn't He allow them to run wild, run free with minimal supervision?
Wouldn't He concentrate His caring on patching up their skinned knees?
An insecure parent makes an insecure child.
A "truly caring" parent makes an adventurous child.
If Jimmy were my son, I would simply remind him to wash his hands before dinner.
So you're only concerned that your son's actions don't have negative consequences.
God would/should be the same kind of Father.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Phat, posted 03-24-2007 7:38 AM Phat has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 147 of 217 (395679)
04-17-2007 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dan Carroll
03-13-2007 9:03 PM


The question I have, given this scenario, is why God would care that little Jimmy Highschoolboy touches himself at night.
It's a big universe, and Jimmy is one boy, on a tiny planet, on the far end of a single galaxy. Meanwhile, God still hasn't managed to get around to licking that whole entropy thing. In the course of running all of Creation, how can it be that God's priorities include getting all pissed off that Jimmy thought a little too long about his lab partner Suzie while he was in the shower?
This seems an odd topic, but I'll give my two cents worth.
As far as entropy is concerned, wouldn't it be logical to assume that God has created entropy so that we know all things are ultimately ephemeral? Entropy wouldn't be something that presents a problem for God in my mind, but rather a deliberate natural law instituted by Him.
As far as God and Jimmy is concerned, I see God as concerned with what is going on in Jimmy's heart, rather than what he is actually doing? From what I gather from scripture, God is far more concerned with the motives of the heart rather than the mechanism of the action.
But most of all, do we know whether or not God would care more or less about the affairs of the universe or Jimmy? Isn't that a human construct afterall?

"Somewhere at the back of my father's mind, at the bottom of his heart, in the depth of his soul, there was an empty space that had once been filled by God and he never found anything else to put in it... At the centre of me is always an eternally terrible pain - a curious wild pain - a searching for something beyond what the world contains." -Bertrand Russell

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dan Carroll, posted 03-13-2007 9:03 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Dan Carroll, posted 04-17-2007 11:51 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 148 of 217 (395683)
04-17-2007 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by Hyroglyphx
04-17-2007 11:44 AM


This seems an odd topic, but I'll give my two cents worth.
A month down the road, and I still don't see why the believers all had such trouble with this topic.
As far as God and Jimmy is concerned...
That is indeed what the thread's concerned with...
I see God as concerned with what is going on in Jimmy's heart, rather than what he is actually doing?
Doesn't really answer the question at all. Heart, hands, why would he care either way?
But most of all, do we know whether or not God would care more or less about the affairs of the universe or Jimmy? Isn't that a human construct afterall?
Aren't we made in God's image?
Of course, I guess it's possible that there's a God out there that has a thought process that humans just can't possibly understand. In which case, his desires are inscrutable, and are therefore irrelevant; there's no way to tell what he wants.
Or, for that matter, why he would care, or even if he does.

"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-17-2007 11:44 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-17-2007 12:06 PM Dan Carroll has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 149 of 217 (395686)
04-17-2007 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Dan Carroll
04-17-2007 11:51 AM


Knowing God
A month down the road, and I still don't see why the believers all had such trouble with this topic.
It might be because you speak a measure of assurance that God would in fact care more about Jimmy's masturbatory habits than the affairs of the universe. I guess maybe some of us are wondering what your reasoning is for it.
Doesn't really answer the question at all. Heart, hands, why would he care either way?
That's as ambiguous as asking why He wouldn't care... Wouldn't God be concerned about all things if He is the platform by which al things emerge? Why must one thing take precendence over another?
quote:
But most of all, do we know whether or not God would care more or less about the affairs of the universe or Jimmy? Isn't that a human construct afterall?
Aren't we made in God's image?
I believe so, but what do you think being in the image of God means?
Of course, I guess it's possible that there's a God out there that has a thought process that humans just can't possibly understand.
At least not in its totality. If we did that would place on the same level as God.
In which case, his desires are inscrutable, and are therefore irrelevant; there's no way to tell what he wants.
Perhaps that's why Jesus instructed not to go beyond what was written because everything else is conjecture. Do believe that God would make Himself completely unknowable and yet knowable at the same time?
Or, for that matter, why he would care, or even if he does.
I guess we can look at it from the perspective of the artist. Why does the artist care about his/her artwork? Why even create it at all?
I mean, there is no doubt that much of God is incalculable and cryptic. But I don't think that means that we can't know anything at all about Him. I believe we know only what He reveals.

"Somewhere at the back of my father's mind, at the bottom of his heart, in the depth of his soul, there was an empty space that had once been filled by God and he never found anything else to put in it... At the centre of me is always an eternally terrible pain - a curious wild pain - a searching for something beyond what the world contains." -Bertrand Russell

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Dan Carroll, posted 04-17-2007 11:51 AM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Dan Carroll, posted 04-17-2007 12:25 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 150 of 217 (395694)
04-17-2007 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Hyroglyphx
04-17-2007 12:06 PM


Re: Knowing God
It might be because you speak a measure of assurance that God would in fact care more about Jimmy's masturbatory habits than the affairs of the universe. I guess maybe some of us are wondering what your reasoning is for it.
That assurance is especially odd, when you take into account that I don't actually think that.
I question why God would care at all about such things, when he has the whole universe to attend to. This is, in fact, the opposite of saying that such things are more important than something else.
That's as ambiguous as asking why He wouldn't care...
There's nothing ambiguous about asking why he would care. It's a very straightforward question.
Wouldn't God be concerned about all things if He is the platform by which al things emerge?
Why? Poop emerges from my butt. I don't care about it once it's flushed.
I believe so, but what do you think being in the image of God means?
It could mean we look like him, in which case it's not really relevant. Or it could mean we think like him, in which case, we can happily assign human motives to him.
Do believe that God would make Himself completely unknowable and yet knowable at the same time?
Nope. But if we can understand what he wants, then we can ask why he wants it, and... oh, look at that. We're going around in circles. And in the meantime, the question goes unanswered.
I guess we can look at it from the perspective of the artist.
We can also look back in the thread, to where this already came up. When I draw a picture, I don't really care about the ink's motivation for soaking into the paper; only that it does so. And if the drawing turns out messed up, screw it, I toss it and start again.
I mean, there is no doubt that much of God is incalculable and cryptic. But I don't think that means that we can't know anything at all about Him. I believe we know only what He reveals.
Great. But we can certainly wonder at the rest. Such as, say, off the top of my head, "Why would he care?"

"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-17-2007 12:06 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by ringo, posted 04-17-2007 2:29 PM Dan Carroll has replied
 Message 179 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-18-2007 1:04 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024