Does the Book of Mormon contradict the Bible?

Hi Bluejay, Where in the text is that statement made?There are 613 commandments in the Torah, which Jesus refered to when He said: "thou knowest the commandments".How many people have kept those 613 commandments from their youth up?The young man was lying to begin with. Those that believe have eternal life.Eternal Greek word transliterated aionios Primary meaning, 1) without beginning and end,Therefore if you have eternal life it will never end.
You receive eternal life when you are born again by the Spirit of God.Quite a fuss has been made over my claim that all a person has to do is believe. Making believing out to be some sort of work in order to obtain eternal life.Lets examine the word translated believe:Believe is translated from the Greek word transliterated pisteu
Primary meaning,
1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence ina) of the thing believed1) to credit, have confidencePlease tell me which part of believing is a work? And that is based upon what?God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

My point was that: ..there are non-Christians in all demoninations(sic), not just non-Christians in the Calvinist denomination.My own view is that people are saved by Gods grace alone, not by the particular doctrine they happen cleave too. Were it we were saved by doctrine alone.And so there will be, I believe, saved people from amongst the Calvinist persuasion, the Arminian, the Mormon, the Muslim. I'm sure even the atheists will be represented amongst the saved; Matthew 25's somewhat surprised-to-be-there sheep probably making up their number.- You mean Bluejay? I've always found him a reasonable enough debater and not one easy to push into a corner. But them darn Catholiks..

When you say "all a person has to do" you leave yourself open to that charge. But it's not one that can stick too well- Let's examine what common sense tells us about believing. Something else causes belief about it to arise up in you. You enter a state of belief about something on account of the effect of that something on you. If that something doesn't work on you then you will not believe, regarding it. The italicised puts it quite nicely. If God convinces man, man believes. No work involved on mans part, he can sit back and relax in the matter.

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My point was that ..there are non-Christians in all demoninations

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We know what your point was. The fact that you have completely ignored the 'solution' to it tends to indicate that you understand that solution, but don't much like it. If that is incorrect, deal with what I wrote in reply.

A 'solution' to there being non-Christians in not just the Calvin denomination but in all other denominations?I'm not sure a solution is required .. but you seem to be asking me to push the button on this?

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There are very few people who would say that X, and Y, are not evangelical Christians (substitute names of any two well-known Calvinist preachers for X and Y). Try it, and see what happens.

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Let X = Martyn Lloyd Jones and Y = John Calvin(stands back expectantly).

Hi, ICANT. I have provided this quote at least four times now:

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"Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"

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"If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."

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--Matthew 19:16-17 (NIV)

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I would much prefer not having to repeat myself again.----- I certainly didn't call belief a "work": I called it a contingency upon which salvation is decided. Your claim is that, because salvation is a gift, it should have no contingencies. Your own beliefs belie that.If there are no contingencies on salvation, then everybody is saved. Not just those who are baptized. Not just believers. Not just righteous or good people. Everyone. Absolutely everyone. Either that, or salvation is granted via arbitrary lottery, and still has nothing to do with believing in God.Edited by Bluejay, : I decided I should probably engage the greater point in this discussion.

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-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

But you haven't admitted that Matthew 19:16-17 is an anachronism.Edited by ochaye, : No reason given.

Hi, Ochaye. This brings up a few important points:

1. You agree with my interpretation of this story
2. Iano's interpretation cannot be correct, because, at the time it was told, the Mosaic Law was still the rule.
3. How come works were appropriate before the Atonement, but not after? Were ancient men capable of greater righteousness than we are?
4. Are you proposing that Matthew 19 chronologically precedes Matthew 5? If not, how do you explain why Jesus taught the New Covenant in Matthew 5, then reverted to teaching the Old Covenant in Matthew 19?

-----Also, I was adding to Message 291 when you responded. I didn't change anything you responded to, though, but I wanted it on the record.Edited by Bluejay, : updated quote to match Ochaye's edited text.

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-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

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How come works were appropriate before the Atonement, but not after?

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Because the atonement made works for justification redundant. Why was there atonement, if works were adequate?

Hi Bluejay,I was refering to the statement:

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"Keep the commandments, and you will have eternal life.

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That statement appears in no translations I know of so I just wondered where you got it from.

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Mat 19:16 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
Mat 19:17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
Mat 19:18 "Which ones?" the man inquired. Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony,
Mat 19:19 honor your father and mother,' [fn] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'
Mat 19:20 "All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"
Mat 19:21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
Mat 19:22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

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I must be blind as I can't find that statement in the verses you presented.I find where the young man asked what he had to do to get eternal life.I find where Jesus said: "If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." Enter life does not say anything about eternal life. The Greek language used only supports animated life nothing to do with the spirit being quickened, born again.I find where he lied saying he had kept the commandments. He wouldn't have had all those posessions if he loved his neighbor as much as he loved himself.I find where Jesus told him if he wanted to be perfect to go sell his posessions and give to the poor.I find where Jesus said if he did this he would have treasure in heaven.I do not find where Jesus said he would have eternal life, if he did all those things.I find where Jesus said: "Then come, follow me."I find where the young man chose not to follow Jesus. From the freedictionary.com
contingency
1.
a. An event that may occur but that is not likely or intended; a possibility.
b. A possibility that must be prepared for; a future emergency.
2. The condition of being dependent on chance; uncertainty.
3. Something incidental to something else.In Message 286 I gave the definition of believe as used in Matthew.

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1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in

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How can your coming to a conclusion in your mind after being presuaded by the Holy Spirit after hearing the gospel be anything other than a happening?You have said it is not a work.
I don't see how you could classify it as a contingency.So maybe you can enlighten me.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi iano,Thanks I needed that I was so bogged down in the forest I could not see the trees.God Bless and keep you and yours,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi, Ochaye. You entirely missed the point.If it was possible for Old Testament people to work their way to heaven, why is it not possible for us now?-----Also, I guess you no longer want to talk about the anachronism.Personally, I wouldn't either, if I were you.

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-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

Hi, ICANT. So, Jesus didn't say that obeying the commandments lets you enter into eternal life, but into mortal life?
I’m quite certain that that is meaningless jibberish. I have heard more intelligible arguments from my two-year-old son.Here’s my assessment: you are so thoroughly offended by the possibility that Jesus might actually have been teaching the doctrines of the Mormon church that you would rather believe that He babbles idiotic, incoherent nonsense that sounds deceptively like Mormon doctrines instead.Are you really that intellectually dishonest that you have to make such obviously stupid arguments as this?Such intellectual dishonesty is a consistent pattern in your behavior on these forums from as long as I've been here, and I think this thread could do without that influence.----- First, a minor correction: I did not say belief is not a work. I said that I did not say that it was a work. Don’t get into the habit of over-interpreting my words.Second, do you know what "contingency" means?A contingency is a precondition. If you cannot be saved without belief, then salvation is contingent on belief. Since belief is a decision, an event in which the individual plays an active part, then salvation is partially contingent on man. That means that a man’s actions contribute to his salvation.The only remaining question is which actions contribute to a man’s salvation.And, based on a clear, direct interpretation of Matthew 19:17 that doesn’t rely on twisted, deceptive semantics, I maintain that Jesus teaches that obedience to the commandments is among those actions that contribute to a man’s salvation.From there, it is a pretty direct route to the Mormon belief that the Bible has many internal inconsistencies, and thus requires the assistance of the Book of Mormon to clarify the troublesome bits.

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-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

I know your response was limited in time but this really doesn't address the case made. Your wider point had to do with Jesus as teacher and the lesson he was inserting into the rich young rulers mind. The focus being on teacher/pupil relationship:The ruler comes to Jesus (as an authority) to find out what he needs to do to inherit eternal life. This renders all of Jesus demands in that regard valid in the eyes of the rich young ruler. In considering the lesson he learns, we cannot leap ahead and suppose that the partial demand (regarding the commandments) means that following the commandments plays a partial role in salvation. The lesson might, as I suggest, be simply using 'follow the commandments' as a temporary lever into springing the lessons true purpose.You could argue that Jesus' demand to 'give up your wealth and follow me' doesn't refer to gaining eternal life but to gaining something separate (reward in heaven), eternal life having been achieved by the ruler following the commands listed. At this point I think we'd have to agree to differ because of wildly differing views on the meaning of the words: eternal life, treasure in heaven, kingdom of God, saved ..contained within the passage. The context makes the case but if the words which form the context are understood differently then there isn't enough common ground for anyones case to be adequately supported.Suffice to say, my view is that all Jesus demands on the ruler form are intended to raise this mans personal bar to impossible heights - the lesson being intended for him personally, primarily.- Fair enough, I was reading from Luke. We're left then supposing the ruler sad because he was either:a) going to give away his wealth and follow Jesus and this saddened him (your view).b) was too tied to his wealth to give it away and was saddened by failing to meet the demand for gaining eternal life (my view).The 'camel through the eye of the needle' comment made by Jesus rings a little hollow were it that the ruler, saddened though he might have been, was toddling off to dissolve his assets and pack his sleeping bag and toothbrush. In the light of this success story, it'd have been more appropriate for Jesus to liken things to 'an overweight ant through the eye of a needle'- 'Outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth' a way of describing a lesser degree of bliss which far and away exceeds anything we experience here? Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Is this so? Does belief involve activity on our part. Or is it something we are brought to without action on our part.I mean, if someone else holds my eyelids open and points my head at a scene I will see whatever is before me - without any action/decision on my part (apart from the natural workings of my body enabling the information to land on my brain and be interpreted.)Similarily, if compelling evidence for something is placed before me then I will believe - without having to actively decide on the matter (apart from the natural processes that evaulate the information and crank out the answer: "it is true*")And so, if salvation is contingent on belief, and belief contingent on God presenting sufficient evidence to cause belief to arise, then the individual plays no active part in his salvation. And contributes nothing to it in the case he is savedThere would be space for a man refusing to look at the evidence which God attempts to place before him. He could turn his head away, clamp his eyes shut, place his hands over his ears, shouting LA-LA-LALA-LA, etc. Plenty of action/decision going on there. In this case he will fail to believe for want of evidence. Salvation being contingent on belief, this man will be lost.We can conclude then;- a man is saved without contributing to his salvation.- a man is lost by having contributed to his damnation.-* It is supposed that 'truth' is a catalyst of sorts which produces the result "it is true" in us without our having to decide.For example: I was addicted to cigarettes a number of years ago and wanted to quit but found it impossible. I read a book in which the reason for my smoking were laid out plainly: the addicitive power of nicotine, my 'liking' smoking being merely the desire to relieve withdrawal from nicotine, that cigarettes create the illusion of peace; the peace felt being the relief of withdrawal pangs, the brainwashing that said "smoking is cool" which got me hooked in the first place.This was the truth about cigarettes and this truth went "PING!" in my head and the hold cigarettes had over me evaporated. Far from being difficult, quitting was falling-from-a-log easy."And you shall know the truth (I came to know the truth about cigarettes by reading the book), and the truth shall set you free (and that is what happened - there was no deciding to do, I looked up and found the prison walls had simply disappeared)"Edited by iano, : No reason given.Edited by iano, : No reason given.