Is Calvinism a form of Gnostic Christianity?

Too funny. Sorry Faith but that is just plain silly, meaningless and totally unsupported. So you agree that the author of the Gospel of John was jess funing when he wrote "16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."? I never doubted that for a second Faith. But of course you have also told us that you do not believe Calvin and even Calvin did not believe Calvin. If the God elects who will be saved then that shows foreknowledge.It really is that simple.

But only the ones he has predetermined would be saved. It's a rigged game. Easier to when a carny game. Your concept of a god is one of the most vile I have come across.

This is just a personal understanding, but it is not the foreknowledge that bothers me. It is instead the predetermination. Foreknowledge without predetermination is just that same kind of twisted, Gordian knot tying, logic bending paradox that shows up in bad time travel stories. I can accept that it is possible to have foreknowledge without guilt. The only alternative I can see to that position (at least for an omnipotent being) is to totally remove our free will.On the other hand, Calvinists explicitly reject mere foreknowledge as weak Arminianism. They insist, despite John 3:16 and all other evidence to the contrary that God has already elected those to be saved and those to suffer eternally and that for most there is no opportunity for salvation.

If you're going to attack "Calvinism" for what the Bible says, you should at least make it clear you are attacking the Bible. You can't take a piece out of context you know, you have to understand how they all work together.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Correct. Creation and election combined with the vile con of the Fall and predestination can only produce dangerous and evil worshipers that need to be feared as well as the God they try to market.

That's great advice Faith. In fact it turns out to be exactly the point of what I said in my complaint about your citing of God's hatred for Esau.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

But Faith isn't the problem that you DON'T understand how they work together ? You've yet to provide any satisfactory answer to the scriptures cited against it.Of course the real answer is that they don't fully work together. That's why it is impossible to produce a coherent view of God based on assuming inerrancy. The Bible is a human work and the view of God it gives is a human view, conditioned by the culture and beliefs of the authors - and sometimes, even, the needs of the stories being told.

In any event, here is Spurgeon's take on it.The Spurgeon Library | Page not foundAfter going through a bunch of Calvinist doctrine and slicing up some Arminianism, Spurgeon claims that Esau earned God's enmity by selling his birthright to Jacob. Yet Spurgeon never gets around to the point of including the Calvinist doctrine that requires that God authored the whole birthright selling.

And in addition that seems to ignore the parts of the story that shows Jacob first using deceit and trickery to steal the birthright and that the porridge incident was an example of Jacob denying Esau food unless Esau gave up the birthright. I guess the God that hated Esau was jess fine with coercion and theft.Nice God.

sounds as if the author was justifying partiality and preference---yet other scripture says that God is no respecter of persons...I will comment more as I read the context

The issue is that this and many other parts of the Bible are not about God. Just as in Genesis 1, 2 & 3 God is just a plot device used to help explain the sacred week or some "Just So" stories, here the God character is just incidental to explaining regional politics and tribal affiliations.The problem is that trying to approach scripture as though it had some common purpose or theme just trivializes scripture as well as god, religion Israel and Judah.It ain't all about God.It really is that simple.

It has been my observation that you think everyone knows or is capable of knowing, feeling, believing or experiencing God. I do not believe this--not to sound arrogant, elitist, or special--just a personal belief that I have, based on observation.I realize that many unbelievers are more moral.Morality and doing right to not require awareness of God.Few and far between are those who are believers and who are walking "in the Spirit". Such people do exist, in my experience though I myself cannot claim to be one of them. Pertaining to the topic, I agree that A God who foreknows damnation is evil. I believe that in communion with God, our actions literally write us into the future.Edited by Phat, : spelling

No idea what that means or what it might have to do with the topic. No idea what that means or how communion with God might be possible. (fixed quote) ~PhatI have absolutely no idea how you might ever get such an idea from anything I might have posted.And most of all I have no idea what any of that has to do with the content of the post to which you are replying which said:

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The issue is that this and many other parts of the Bible are not about God. Just as in Genesis 1, 2 & 3 God is just a plot device used to help explain the sacred week or some "Just So" stories, here the God character is just incidental to explaining regional politics and tribal affiliations.

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The problem is that trying to approach scripture as though it had some common purpose or theme just trivializes scripture as well as god, religion Israel and Judah.

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It ain't all about God.

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Edited by AdminPhat, : clarified misquote. I inform jar in the next post.

I just read the Spurgeon sermon. It says what I was trying to say. Salvation is entirely by free grace given to even the worst of sinners, but damnation is the result of your sins and not God's sovereign will. Jacob is loved for no reason at all, just sovereign grace, but Esau is hated because of his sins. Jacob COULD have been hated for his sins but instead by free grace he was loved.Spurgeon doesn't mention Calvin at all but argues it completely on the basis of scripture, the argument being simply that both doctrines are there and are to be taken on faith since we can't understand them. I think that is a very good thing about his sermon, that he emphasizes that these are concepts that are too difficult for us to understand, that we are to believe what we find in scripture but what we can't understand we just have to leave at that. But he does answer it, basically by saying it isn't so, that God is not the author of sin, that it isn't biblical to think that way about sin, that those who end up in Hell do so because of their sin and not because God willed it.Again, he doesn't mention Calvin at all. I would still like to see how someone like Spurgeon reads Calvin, if he reads him to be saying that God authored anything to do with sin. It certainly seems from this sermon that he couldn't believe that's what Calvin was claiming although so many here think that. I still hope to find a discussion somewhere that addresses what Calvin said.

I made a mistake! What I wanted to say is:

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It has been my understanding that you believe that no one knows or is capable of knowing, feeling, believing or experiencing God.

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You then say that I maintain that it is about humanity in communion with God.I realize that you have

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No idea what that means or how communion with God might be possible.

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This is why some of your critics suggest that your particular belief is more of a philosophy.I have explained my belief--that through Jesus the mediator Communion is possible.

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...the God character is just incidental to explaining regional politics and tribal affiliations.

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and thats the sad yet true reality. Humans are not interested in communion with God. Humans are simply interested in building their own little kingdom in the universe. You say it isn't all about God. I say it isn't all about us. Calvin would probably say that it is all about God and that humans are simply acting out the parts foreknown about us. I would disagree. God does not foreknow who is gonna be evil, only because we become the decisions that we make...by His Divine Grace. Our actions in the present determine the course of the future.