Is Calvinism a form of Gnostic Christianity?

It is God you ridicule.

Are you insane? You claimed that God only loves the elect. Your defense of that was "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated." What does that have to do with election or predestination? I presented 4 verses that indicate that God's love extends to ALL people. What a crock.This is how discussions with you ALWAYS, ALWAYS end up.Good day.

Only the God you try to market.I know that you believe that is God but you are not honest enough to examine what the god you market would really be doing. Instead you claim utter nonsense like the god you try to market is kind and loving when what you claim are the actions of that god are worse than any atrocities committed by man, even including Christianity.You claim that there are those who are elected regardless of anything they do and those who are not elected regardless of what they do and that the god you try to market has foreknowledge of who is elected and who is not.Is that a correct summary?

I could say the same to you, you know: This is how our discussions always end up. What makes you think you are in the right?In any case you did NOT give quotes that prove that God loves everybody, you gave quotes that are commands to believers to love our enemies. You could have given the one that tells us to be perfect even as God is perfect who makes the sun to shine and the rain to flal on 4everybody.My response to this was that Calvinists do not ignore these quotes. But Jacob I have loved and Esau I have hated speaks directly to the questions we are considering here, and you apparently have to ignore it as I just said, because it doesn't fit with the Arminian program. This is one of the verses given by Calvinists as support for election and predestination.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

quote:

---

Not saying people desire Hell, just saying people are content with their own way of doing things, not believing in God, not interested in seeking Him. Won't believe in Hell when told about it. For all intents and purposes they choose what happens to them.

---

For all intents and purposes they have NO choice at all. And even if they had, they do not choose Hell.

quote:

---

The ultimate answer to you is that Calvin is Biblical so that criticizing him is criticizing the Bible.

---

Of course that isn't really true, is it ? You didn't answer either of the scriptures I quoted.

quote:

---

I found a site that lists biblical references for each of the TULIP points but I can't get the thing to load. However,

---

Simply quoting verses that support (or allegedly support) the TULIP points amounts to cherry-picking. You need to deal with the rest, too.So, try these again: (Genesis 6:6)How can God be so upset, to the point of wishing that he had never made humans, if everything is going according to his plan ? He made things turn out this way ?
(John 3:16)Loving only the Elect - a tiny proportion - isn't loving the world. And if only the Elect can believe in Christ that's a pretty hollow offer.And this: (1 Timothy 2:3-4)

You are always accusing me, in this case of not telling the truth, and I'm sorry I just don't read a lot of your stuff for that reason. It's depressing and false.However, I'll answer this one, not sure why. Yes, Calvin is biblical and I do believe when you criticize most of his analysis you are criticizing the Bible. Calvin is KNOWN to be thoroughly biblical.Yes I would expect to have to answer the Arminian claims as well as make the case for Calvinism from the Bible. It seems needed because we too easily fall into mere reasoning instead of basing it on the Bible.I have no problem with God's expressing regret at creating humanity, no idea why you or anyone should, it's the appropriate response to His creation turning against Him. It's just the typical hypercalvinism to say that "everything is going according to his plan" instead of taking it on the level of experienced reality. Funny anyone would think that Calvin and Calvinists just kind of manage not to notice such things in the Bible. Calvinism is hard to understand for some people.Now you raise scriptures that are from the level of our experience but ignore the higher level, God's expressions of love and desire that all be saved. All that is true. However, loving the world doesn't imply that He loves all individuals, in the light of Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated. You do have to take all the scriptures into account. That's what I expected would be the case if we kept it to the biblical context. But I certainly do not have any wish to discuss these things with you.But I'm not up on all these various points. I'm sure Calvin and the Calvinists are, however. I think maybe I should just leave it to them.

quote:

---

You are always accusing me, in this case of not telling the truth, and I'm sorry I just don't read a lot of your stuff for that reason. It's depressing and false.

---

You may find it depressing, but if you've chosen to remain ignorant of the scriptural objections to Calvinism that's your problem, not mine.

quote:

---

I have no problem with God's expressing regret at creating humanity, no idea why you or anyone should, it's the appropriate response to His creation turning against Him.

---

Obviously it would NOT be appropriate if God intentionally and knowingly arranged it. And according to Calvinism that is exactly how it happened.

quote:

---

It's just the typical hypercalvinism to say that "everything is going according to his plan" instead of taking it on the level of experienced reality.

---

Of course we are talking about God's perspective, not ours. And if in God's view his creation genuinely rebelled against him - contrary to his will - then either God is wrong or Calvinism is.

quote:

---

Funny anyone would think that Calvin and Calvinists just kind of manage not to notice such things in the Bible. Calvinism is hard to understand for some people.

---

Since you're essentially arguing that even God doesn't believe in his own sovereignty I'd say that it is you that has problems understanding Calvinism.

quote:

---

Now you raise scriptures that are from the level of our experience but ignore the higher level, God's expressions of love and desire that all be saved. All that is true

---

If God genuinely desired that all be saved, why aren't they ? Unconditional Election tells us that God can do it. Non-Calvinists may place the blame on humans but Calvinists cannot.

quote:

---

However, loving the world doesn't imply that He loves all individuals, in the light of Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated. You do have to take all the scriptures into account.

---

But we have to reconcile God's love of the world with far more than just taking a dislike to some individuals. According to Calvin God deliberately corrupted the world, resulting in the damnation of the vast majority of humans as well as much suffering for people and animals in this life. Romans 8:22Would someone who loved the world do that ?

Then Calvin was a typical hypercalvinist. Calvin does indeed take notice of the passage that PaulK cites, and in a manner which I think will astonish you. Y'see, we can't take the Bible literally. If we interpreted "all men" as meaning "all men", rather than "definitely not all men, but at least one man from each social class", this would contradict Calvinist theology. And as Calvin is Mr. Biblical, that would be like disagreeing with the plain meaning of the Bible ... which we must therefore do.

Uhhh, my arguments... You COULD say the same, but it wouldn't actually BE the same. I don't fall back on "I know I am right and the Bible agrees with me and so does Calvin and a whole bunch of Calvinist preachers and so you are all just wrong and if you disagree with me you disagree with God himself." How self-righteous and conceited. No more complaints of "hyper-Calvinism" from you! Hyper-Calvinism would state that God preordained billions of people to suffer in hell for all eternity, but you take it even further - that God hates those that he has preordained to suffer in hell for all eternity. That's hyper-hyper-Calvinism. I really had no idea ANY Christian believed that!If that truly IS Calvinism...

As an argument this one is particularly pathetic. If God has hatred for Esau, we know quite well how that enmity was generated, and we have a story about Esau that is completely consistent with man having free will. If instead we saw that Esau was hated from the beginning of time, you might have some scriptural evidence.Remember also that nobody is arguing that all people will be saved only that their own volition plays a role. Esau and his mom surely earned some enmity.Finally you use this argument to rebut direct words quoting God saying that he offers salvation to all, and then try to tell us that the particularly quote is written from human perspective. What part of the Bible isn't written that way? Just the parts you say in order to define Hyper-Calvinism?Seriously, Faith. You aren't any better at reading the Bible than you are at reading rocks.

The "Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated" quote is doubly silly since Jacob is portrayed as a pretty nasty character in the stories, one who is hell bent on stealing Esau's birthright and without scruples.Of course that is also another example often found in fairy tales and myths; the tale of the "sharp dealer" who takes advantage of a not quite bright character.In the stories though the God character seems to approve of such dealings and in fact after Jacob makes a fairly small offering to Esau and Esau shows that he forgives Jacob the God character confirms the identification and renaming of Jacob to Israel.The original renaming too is an interesting tale where the God character even tries cheating to attempt (but fails) to win a pretty silly wrestling match.Both of these stories should bolster the understanding that the stories are not really about the God character but rather "identity myths" important to creating a culture.

You seem to forget the most basic fact which is that God doesn't save anybody or love anybody for anything in themselves that deserves it. You made the same strange mistake with your Warlord analogy, at least as Phat presented it: God does not save people who love Him, He saves sinners, sometimes the worst of the worst.

And you continue to make the same mistake and to show you are totally incapable of reading with any comprehension. Learn to read what is written.You are the one who claims that God saves Christians, not I.You make the same mistake Calvin does in absolutely totally and willfully failing to think things through.If God creates humans and has foreknowledge of whether or not they will be elected then that God is a vile, evil, capricious asshole unworthy of respect or worship.It really is that simple.

What on EARTH are you talking about? God doesn't "save Christians," God saves sinners whom He makes into Christians.And I'll believe the eminently Biblical Calvin over the likes of you any day.And why are you talking about "foreknowledge" if you intend to slam Calvin? Foreknowledge is the Arminian view.