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Author | Topic: Dino blood | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Andya Primanda Inactive Member |
Is it true that scientists have found evidence of intact hemoglobin within dinosaur bones? Some creationist I come across advanced this stuff.
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TrueCreation Inactive Member |
"Is it true that scientists have found evidence of intact hemoglobin within dinosaur bones? Some creationist I come across advanced this stuff."
--Not sure what it has to do with the Great Flood, but I know AiG and possibly ICR have articles on it. Just do a search for 'hemoglobin' or 'dinosaur DNA' or soemthing like that. I'm not going to go there and get the link because my computer always freezes up when I scroll around in the AiG website. --I'm not sure on its merits though. ------------------
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Quetzal Member (Idle past 5873 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
The short answer: "no". What was found were hemoglobin residues.
quote: In what context were the creationists attempting to use this information? The only time I heard the creationists use this argument, it was an attempt to push a "young earth". I.e., since hemoglobin breaks down fairly quickly, dino "hemoglobin" is evidence that they didn't live very long ago, or some such nonsense.
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TrueCreation Inactive Member |
Why can't we just get a reasonable YEC organization.. This is tedious to the development of the YEC scientific community!
------------------ [This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 06-11-2002]
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Dr_Tazimus_maximus Member (Idle past 3218 days) Posts: 402 From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA Joined: |
quote: That is correct, the creationists were saying that the incomplete fossilization and the presence of "red blood cells" were evidence that the T. rex died only a short (ie thousands) of years ago. The paper which presented the real evidence was by Horners group in PNAS, 1997 vol 94 pp6291-6296. The bone had "capped" which means that the ends had fossilized and trapped moisture inside of the bone preventing the interior from fossilizing. This also allowed for the association of the proteins with the bone minerals in a manner very similar to protein purification and stabilization on hydroxyapatite, a calcium phosphate matrix used in biochemeistry that has a number of similarities to the general mineral composition of bone. The apatite matrix within the bone helps to protect protein from long term hydrolytic damage. The "red blood cells" found within the bone were actually "ghosts" comprised of completely oxidized heme breakdown products and polypeptide strands. The sample was so old that the amino acids within the polypeptide strands had undergone racimization, ie they were comprised of a mixture of L and D amino acids. There is no way that this sample was only a few thousand years old. This was actually a very cool find as the polypeptide strands obtained were sufficient to demonstrate that the T. rex was relatively close in relationship to a chicken based on immunology of the remaining hemoglobin polypeptide strands within the bone. For the parents in the audience than means that Elmo was really being chased by a T. rex and not a giant chicken ------------------"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur Taz Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Fix quote box.
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Quetzal Member (Idle past 5873 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Sorry about that TC.
OTOH, it's probably pretty good tactics if you're just trying to impress people without much of a science background. After all, how many people do you know that could read and/or understand the PNAS article I referenced - Horner's original, as Dr. T pointed out - enough to pick up on what was really found? Let alone the importance of the discovery for everything from cladistics and paleontology to protein evolution?
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Dr_Tazimus_maximus Member (Idle past 3218 days) Posts: 402 From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA Joined: |
quote: Actually Duane Gish should know about the difference between "red blood cells" and what was actually found by Horners group; Gish's training was (it depresses me to admit) in biochemistry. The only way that garbage such as the statement that the dino bone meant a young earth could be mentioned on the ICR and certian related websites would be a depressing ability, desire and willingness to lie concerning the data ------------------"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur Taz
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Andor Inactive Member |
quote: I think racimization is used as a helping tool in geochronology. I have been searching and though I've actually found a number of references, none give numerical data. Could it be an uncontroversial, independent of radiodating, prove against YEC?
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Quetzal Member (Idle past 5873 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
quote: So's Behe - wonder what it is about biochemists? (Sorry Dr. T, couldn't resist.
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Dr_Tazimus_maximus Member (Idle past 3218 days) Posts: 402 From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA Joined: |
quote: I have read a few thing concerning rates of racinization but that was a LONG time ago. From what I do remember there are two large problems with its use for dating: the first is the variability inherent within the racimization rates due to conditions, as well as a lack of internal control that is found with the most advanced radioactive dating techniques which actually use single crystals; the second is that, while not unknown, the presence of organics in sufficient quantity or of sufficient quality to do the dating is very, very rare. Most of the ones that I am familiar with are based on some sort of bone or bone associated protein and would probably not be enough for a wide spread technique. I need to look up the most recent research in this area in my copious spare time ------------------"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur Taz [This message has been edited by Dr_Tazimus_maximus, 06-11-2002]
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Dr_Tazimus_maximus Member (Idle past 3218 days) Posts: 402 From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA Joined: |
quote: Actually I think that Behe is more a molecular biologist ------------------"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur Taz Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Fix quote box.
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Dr_Tazimus_maximus Member (Idle past 3218 days) Posts: 402 From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA Joined: |
One last comment on fossil proteins before I go back to lab. There are a number of papers that groups such as the ICR use, ie misrepresent, for their young earth arguements. If anyone hears one concerning a bone protein called osteocalcin (Geology 1992 v20 pp871-874) it again does nothing to prove a young earth. It is another complexed bone protein and it is detected almost solely by the presence of a single modified amino acid (gamma-carboxy glutamate) and not the presence of an intact protein as indicated by some YEC's.
------------------"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur Taz
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Neat. A friend of mine bought a few chickens several years ago and I've been promoting the dinosaur thing with much added emotion since then. Eat more chicken. They'd eat you if they could. ------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Fix quote box.
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Brad McFall Member (Idle past 5034 days) Posts: 3428 From: Ithaca,NY, USA Joined: |
If this is true then I have not doubt that the physico-chemistry of colloids that Provine steped over at Cornell to argue against anything of mine would show that Langmuir's ideas could be applied in this instance without biasing the direction of the research one way or the other. It is often a difficult interpretation if the letter is b or d as in absorbtion or adsorbtion. The science of that is tied up with cross-sections and then any physical idea could be in that mental one.
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3824 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
Is this chemical decomposition caused primarily from reactions with contaminants/etc or just from things like random bond-breaking from thermal motion or radiation over time?
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