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Author Topic:   Dino blood
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 19 (11281)
06-11-2002 1:48 AM


Is it true that scientists have found evidence of intact hemoglobin within dinosaur bones? Some creationist I come across advanced this stuff.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by TrueCreation, posted 06-11-2002 3:22 AM Andya Primanda has not replied
 Message 3 by Quetzal, posted 06-11-2002 3:26 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 19 (11285)
06-11-2002 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Andya Primanda
06-11-2002 1:48 AM


"Is it true that scientists have found evidence of intact hemoglobin within dinosaur bones? Some creationist I come across advanced this stuff."
--Not sure what it has to do with the Great Flood, but I know AiG and possibly ICR have articles on it. Just do a search for 'hemoglobin' or 'dinosaur DNA' or soemthing like that. I'm not going to go there and get the link because my computer always freezes up when I scroll around in the AiG website.
--I'm not sure on its merits though.
------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Andya Primanda, posted 06-11-2002 1:48 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5873 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 3 of 19 (11286)
06-11-2002 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Andya Primanda
06-11-2002 1:48 AM


The short answer: "no". What was found were hemoglobin residues.
quote:
Six independent lines of evidence point to the existence of heme-containing compounds and/or hemoglobin breakdown products in extracts of trabecular tissues of the large theropod dinosaur Tyrannosaurus rex. (From Heme compounds in dinosaur trabecular bone)
In what context were the creationists attempting to use this information? The only time I heard the creationists use this argument, it was an attempt to push a "young earth". I.e., since hemoglobin breaks down fairly quickly, dino "hemoglobin" is evidence that they didn't live very long ago, or some such nonsense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Andya Primanda, posted 06-11-2002 1:48 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by TrueCreation, posted 06-11-2002 4:59 AM Quetzal has replied
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TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 19 (11291)
06-11-2002 4:59 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Quetzal
06-11-2002 3:26 AM


Why can't we just get a reasonable YEC organization.. This is tedious to the development of the YEC scientific community!
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[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 06-11-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Quetzal, posted 06-11-2002 3:26 AM Quetzal has replied

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Dr_Tazimus_maximus
Member (Idle past 3218 days)
Posts: 402
From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA
Joined: 03-19-2002


Message 5 of 19 (11303)
06-11-2002 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Quetzal
06-11-2002 3:26 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Quetzal:
In what context were the creationists attempting to use this information? The only time I heard the creationists use this argument, it was an attempt to push a "young earth". I.e., since hemoglobin breaks down fairly quickly, dino "hemoglobin" is evidence that they didn't live very long ago, or some such nonsense.
That is correct, the creationists were saying that the incomplete fossilization and the presence of "red blood cells" were evidence that the T. rex died only a short (ie thousands) of years ago. The paper which presented the real evidence was by Horners group in PNAS, 1997 vol 94 pp6291-6296. The bone had "capped" which means that the ends had fossilized and trapped moisture inside of the bone preventing the interior from fossilizing. This also allowed for the association of the proteins with the bone minerals in a manner very similar to protein purification and stabilization on hydroxyapatite, a calcium phosphate matrix used in biochemeistry that has a number of similarities to the general mineral composition of bone. The apatite matrix within the bone helps to protect protein from long term hydrolytic damage. The "red blood cells" found within the bone were actually "ghosts" comprised of completely oxidized heme breakdown products and polypeptide strands. The sample was so old that the amino acids within the polypeptide strands had undergone racimization, ie they were comprised of a mixture of L and D amino acids. There is no way that this sample was only a few thousand years old.
This was actually a very cool find as the polypeptide strands obtained were sufficient to demonstrate that the T. rex was relatively close in relationship to a chicken based on immunology of the remaining hemoglobin polypeptide strands within the bone. For the parents in the audience than means that Elmo was really being chased by a T. rex and not a giant chicken
.
------------------
"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
Taz
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Fix quote box.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Andor, posted 06-11-2002 10:05 AM Dr_Tazimus_maximus has replied
 Message 13 by John, posted 06-11-2002 11:29 AM Dr_Tazimus_maximus has not replied
 Message 14 by Brad McFall, posted 06-11-2002 11:46 AM Dr_Tazimus_maximus has not replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5873 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 6 of 19 (11305)
06-11-2002 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by TrueCreation
06-11-2002 4:59 AM


Sorry about that TC.
Just another example why it's difficult to take YECs seriously - no offense and present company excepted. NONE of the main YEC organizations have any credibility whatsoever because they are ALWAYS coming up with this kind of (deliberate?) misunderstanding of actual science.
OTOH, it's probably pretty good tactics if you're just trying to impress people without much of a science background. After all, how many people do you know that could read and/or understand the PNAS article I referenced - Horner's original, as Dr. T pointed out - enough to pick up on what was really found? Let alone the importance of the discovery for everything from cladistics and paleontology to protein evolution?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus, posted 06-11-2002 9:49 AM Quetzal has replied

  
Dr_Tazimus_maximus
Member (Idle past 3218 days)
Posts: 402
From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA
Joined: 03-19-2002


Message 7 of 19 (11309)
06-11-2002 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Quetzal
06-11-2002 9:30 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Quetzal:
Sorry about that TC.
Just another example why it's difficult to take YECs seriously - no offense and present company excepted. NONE of the main YEC organizations have any credibility whatsoever because they are ALWAYS coming up with this kind of (deliberate?) misunderstanding of actual science.
OTOH, it's probably pretty good tactics if you're just trying to impress people without much of a science background. After all, how many people do you know that could read and/or understand the PNAS article I referenced - Horner's original, as Dr. T pointed out - enough to pick up on what was really found? Let alone the importance of the discovery for everything from cladistics and paleontology to protein evolution?

Actually Duane Gish should know about the difference between "red blood cells" and what was actually found by Horners group; Gish's training was (it depresses me to admit) in biochemistry. The only way that garbage such as the statement that the dino bone meant a young earth could be mentioned on the ICR and certian related websites would be a depressing ability, desire and willingness to lie concerning the data
.
------------------
"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
Taz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Quetzal, posted 06-11-2002 9:30 AM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
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Andor
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 19 (11311)
06-11-2002 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus
06-11-2002 8:39 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Dr_Tazimus_maximus:
The sample was so old that the amino acids within the polypeptide strands had undergone racimization, ie they were comprised of a mixture of L and D amino acids. There is no way that this sample was only a few thousand years old.
I think racimization is used as a helping tool in geochronology. I have been searching and though I've actually found a number of references, none give numerical data. Could it be an uncontroversial, independent of radiodating, prove against YEC?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus, posted 06-11-2002 8:39 AM Dr_Tazimus_maximus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus, posted 06-11-2002 10:19 AM Andor has not replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5873 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 9 of 19 (11312)
06-11-2002 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus
06-11-2002 9:49 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Dr_Tazimus_maximus:
Actually Duane Gish should know about the difference between "red blood cells" and what was actually found by Horners group; Gish's training was (it depresses me to admit) in biochemistry.
So's Behe - wonder what it is about biochemists? (Sorry Dr. T, couldn't resist.
)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus, posted 06-11-2002 9:49 AM Dr_Tazimus_maximus has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr_Tazimus_maximus
Member (Idle past 3218 days)
Posts: 402
From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA
Joined: 03-19-2002


Message 10 of 19 (11313)
06-11-2002 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Andor
06-11-2002 10:05 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Andor:
I think racimization is used as a helping tool in geochronology. I have been searching and though I've actually found a number of references, none give numerical data. Could it be an uncontroversial, independent of radiodating, prove against YEC?

I have read a few thing concerning rates of racinization but that was a LONG time ago. From what I do remember there are two large problems with its use for dating: the first is the variability inherent within the racimization rates due to conditions, as well as a lack of internal control that is found with the most advanced radioactive dating techniques which actually use single crystals; the second is that, while not unknown, the presence of organics in sufficient quantity or of sufficient quality to do the dating is very, very rare. Most of the ones that I am familiar with are based on some sort of bone or bone associated protein and would probably not be enough for a wide spread technique. I need to look up the most recent research in this area in my copious spare time
.
------------------
"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
Taz
[This message has been edited by Dr_Tazimus_maximus, 06-11-2002]

This message is a reply to:
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Dr_Tazimus_maximus
Member (Idle past 3218 days)
Posts: 402
From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA
Joined: 03-19-2002


Message 11 of 19 (11314)
06-11-2002 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Quetzal
06-11-2002 10:07 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Quetzal:
So's Behe - wonder what it is about biochemists? (Sorry Dr. T, couldn't resist.)

Actually I think that Behe is more a molecular biologist
. If you want something really amusing, look at the extremely high number of engineers in the ICR and related groups. Something in their training makes them look for design I guess
.
------------------
"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
Taz
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Fix quote box.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Quetzal, posted 06-11-2002 10:07 AM Quetzal has not replied

  
Dr_Tazimus_maximus
Member (Idle past 3218 days)
Posts: 402
From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA
Joined: 03-19-2002


Message 12 of 19 (11316)
06-11-2002 10:32 AM


One last comment on fossil proteins before I go back to lab. There are a number of papers that groups such as the ICR use, ie misrepresent, for their young earth arguements. If anyone hears one concerning a bone protein called osteocalcin (Geology 1992 v20 pp871-874) it again does nothing to prove a young earth. It is another complexed bone protein and it is detected almost solely by the presence of a single modified amino acid (gamma-carboxy glutamate) and not the presence of an intact protein as indicated by some YEC's.
------------------
"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
Taz

Replies to this message:
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John
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 19 (11322)
06-11-2002 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus
06-11-2002 8:39 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Dr_Tazimus_maximus:
... were sufficient to demonstrate that the T. rex was relatively close in relationship to a chicken based on immunology of the remaining hemoglobin polypeptide strands within the bone.
Neat. A friend of mine bought a few chickens several years ago and I've been promoting the dinosaur thing with much added emotion since then.
Eat more chicken. They'd eat you if they could.
------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Fix quote box.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus, posted 06-11-2002 8:39 AM Dr_Tazimus_maximus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Peter, posted 07-25-2002 5:37 AM John has replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5034 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 14 of 19 (11324)
06-11-2002 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus
06-11-2002 8:39 AM


If this is true then I have not doubt that the physico-chemistry of colloids that Provine steped over at Cornell to argue against anything of mine would show that Langmuir's ideas could be applied in this instance without biasing the direction of the research one way or the other. It is often a difficult interpretation if the letter is b or d as in absorbtion or adsorbtion. The science of that is tied up with cross-sections and then any physical idea could be in that mental one.

This message is a reply to:
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gene90
Member (Idle past 3824 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 15 of 19 (11337)
06-11-2002 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus
06-11-2002 10:32 AM


Is this chemical decomposition caused primarily from reactions with contaminants/etc or just from things like random bond-breaking from thermal motion or radiation over time?

This message is a reply to:
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