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Author Topic:   Where did the flood waters come from and where did they go?
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Message 76 of 160 (219426)
06-24-2005 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by TrueCreation
06-24-2005 7:06 PM


Re: YEC water problem
Hi Chris,
In my judgment, TB is attempting to mischaracterize Creationist views as mainstream science. He has done it twice now already in the brief time since his return, once regarding Baumgardner, and again regarding the fine structure constant. He will either stop doing this or be vulnerable to suspension.
I'm not going to quibble about wording, EvC Forum is not the place for semantic games, and this isn't open for discussion here, anyway. If you have issues you can take them to General discussion of moderation procedures: The Sequel, but unless there's some indication that you're in tune with me then I'm unlikely to respond. The days of explaining things ad infinitum to dissatisified posters who in spite of all efforts to clarify and explain remain forever dissatisfied regardless is over.
Also over are the days of entertaining nonsense. Either you have evidence and can *clearly* explain how it supports your views or you don't and you can't. Threads pleading for evidence and explanations for page after page are a thing of the past. The inmates no longer run the asylum.
Capice?

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by TrueCreation, posted 06-24-2005 7:06 PM TrueCreation has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 77 of 160 (219427)
06-24-2005 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by TrueCreation
06-24-2005 7:06 PM


Re: YEC water problem
TrueCreation writes:
As far as the topic at hand, 'where did the flood waters come from and where did they go', there exist many 'explanations' as randy referred to in his first post such as the 'vapor canopy', Brown's Hydroplate, and CPT via runaway subduction (argued in some favour by myself and TB).
Great! So where did the water come from, where did it go, and where's your evidence?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by TrueCreation, posted 06-24-2005 7:06 PM TrueCreation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by TrueCreation, posted 06-24-2005 8:35 PM Percy has replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 160 (219428)
06-24-2005 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by jar
06-24-2005 7:23 PM


Re: CPT and the volume of water.
quote:
How does CPT add or subtract water?
Well think about what would occur with seafloor spreading and subduction occuring at the rates proposed by CPT via runaway. Variations in eustasy can be attributed to variations in the bathymetry of the ocean floor. The bathymetry of the ocean floor is thereby due to variations in the thickness of the oceanic lithosphere (where thickness is determined by a differentiation from the lower mantle by some isotherm). The high rates of spreading implied by CPT would cause lithosphere near the spreading ridge to be extremely thin. Because the lithosphere would be very thin it would well upwards, causing eustasy to rise relative to the continents. As seafloor spreading decreased from runaway rates towards current rates, mean lithospheric thickness would increase causing eustasy to return towards current levels.
-Chris Grose
This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 06-24-2005 08:19 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by jar, posted 06-24-2005 7:23 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by jar, posted 06-24-2005 8:18 PM TrueCreation has replied
 Message 84 by Percy, posted 06-24-2005 8:34 PM TrueCreation has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 79 of 160 (219429)
06-24-2005 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by TrueCreation
06-24-2005 8:16 PM


Re: CPT and the volume of water.
How does that add or subtract water?
Are you saying the volume of water remains constant?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by TrueCreation, posted 06-24-2005 8:16 PM TrueCreation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by TrueCreation, posted 06-24-2005 8:22 PM jar has replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 160 (219430)
06-24-2005 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by jar
06-24-2005 8:18 PM


Re: CPT and the volume of water.
quote:
How does that add or subtract water?
Are you saying the volume of water remains constant?
yes the volume of water remains essentially constant, but this volume of water is deflected upwards because of a mean rise of the ocean floor--resulting in continental inundation. If CPT ever occured, I don't think the globe was ever fully inundated as a literal interpretation of genesis would imply, however. However this process would have caused sealevel to fluctuate intensely.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by jar, posted 06-24-2005 8:18 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 06-24-2005 8:23 PM TrueCreation has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 81 of 160 (219431)
06-24-2005 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by TrueCreation
06-24-2005 8:22 PM


Re: CPT and the volume of water.
Did it rain during the Flood?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by TrueCreation, posted 06-24-2005 8:22 PM TrueCreation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by TrueCreation, posted 06-24-2005 8:24 PM jar has replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 160 (219432)
06-24-2005 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by jar
06-24-2005 8:23 PM


Re: CPT and the volume of water.
quote:
Did it rain during the Flood?
Sure did.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 06-24-2005 8:23 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by jar, posted 06-24-2005 8:29 PM TrueCreation has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 83 of 160 (219433)
06-24-2005 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by TrueCreation
06-24-2005 8:24 PM


Re: CPT and the volume of water.
So let me get this straight.
The volume of water remains constant.
It rains during the flood.
Correct so far?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by TrueCreation, posted 06-24-2005 8:24 PM TrueCreation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by TrueCreation, posted 06-24-2005 8:38 PM jar has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 84 of 160 (219434)
06-24-2005 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by TrueCreation
06-24-2005 8:16 PM


Re: CPT and the volume of water.
TrueCreation writes:
The bathymetry of the ocean floor is thereby due to variations in the thickness of the oceanic lithosphere (where thickness is determined by a differentiation from the lower mantle by some isotherm).
Am I correct to think this implies that the *thicker* the lithosphere at a given spot, the shallower the ocean at that spot?
The high rates of spreading implied by CPT would cause lithosphere near the spreading ridge to be extremely thin. Because the lithosphere would be very thin it would well upwards...
Am I correct to think this implies that the *thinner* the lithosphere at a given spot, the shallower the ocean at that spot?
Anyway, whatever the explanation of this apparent contradiction, the question is, "Where did the water come from, and where did it go?" Your scenario does not require water to be added or subtracted, and so there's no reason for you to be addressing this question.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by TrueCreation, posted 06-24-2005 8:16 PM TrueCreation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by TrueCreation, posted 06-24-2005 8:43 PM Percy has replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 160 (219435)
06-24-2005 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Percy
06-24-2005 8:14 PM


Re: YEC water problem
quote:
Great! So where did the water come from, where did it go, and where's your evidence?
I think vail, et al's. charts were posted earlier. Also I think I understand what you were trying to get at with your criticisms of the graph you cited in post 43, and i'll give you the benefit of the doubt on the few little things I would look into quibbling about. However, the meat of the answer is in the fact that sealevel has clearly fluctuated by at least hundreds of meters throughout phanerozoic.
-Chris Grose
This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 06-24-2005 08:35 PM

"...research [is] a strenuous and devoted attempt to force nature into the conceptual boxes supplied by professional education. Simultaneously, we shall wonder whether research could proceed without such boxes, whatever the element of arbitrariness in their historic origins and, occasionally, in their subsequent development." Kuhn, T. S.; The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, pp. 5, 1996.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Percy, posted 06-24-2005 8:14 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Percy, posted 06-24-2005 8:52 PM TrueCreation has replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 160 (219436)
06-24-2005 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by jar
06-24-2005 8:29 PM


Re: CPT and the volume of water.
quote:
So let me get this straight.
The volume of water remains constant.
It rains during the flood.
Correct so far?
ok, sure, essentially constant (as other additions and subtractions of water I am arguing are quite insignificant to eustasy relative to eustatic shifts caused by tectonics as discussed), and it rained a bit during the process--although I really don't see how the fact that it rained is relevant here.
I am guessing you are bringing this to a point--want to just spill it? =D
-Chris Grose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by jar, posted 06-24-2005 8:29 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by jar, posted 06-24-2005 8:51 PM TrueCreation has not replied
 Message 95 by roxrkool, posted 06-24-2005 9:22 PM TrueCreation has replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 160 (219437)
06-24-2005 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Percy
06-24-2005 8:34 PM


Re: CPT and the volume of water.
quote:
Am I correct to think this implies that the *thicker* the lithosphere at a given spot, the shallower the ocean at that spot?
No I think you misinterpreted what I was saying. I said:
quote:
The bathymetry of the ocean floor is thereby due to variations in the thickness of the oceanic lithosphere (where thickness is determined by a differentiation from the lower mantle by some isotherm).
That is to say, as the thickness of the oceanic lithosphere changes (where it be an increase or decrease in thickness) bathymetry does as well. The bit I put in parantheses I guess was an unnecessary point.
quote:
The high rates of spreading implied by CPT would cause lithosphere near the spreading ridge to be extremely thin. Because the lithosphere would be very thin it would well upwards...
Am I correct to think this implies that the *thinner* the lithosphere at a given spot, the shallower the ocean at that spot?
Yes, correct here.
quote:
Anyway, whatever the explanation of this apparent contradiction, the question is, "Where did the water come from, and where did it go?" Your scenario does not require water to be added or subtracted, and so there's no reason for you to be addressing this question.
What do you mean? It answeres it because it states that the water that inundated the continents came from and returned to the ocean basins. (edit Therefore the question is answered by CPT via runaway.
-Chris Grose
This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 06-24-2005 08:44 PM

"...research [is] a strenuous and devoted attempt to force nature into the conceptual boxes supplied by professional education. Simultaneously, we shall wonder whether research could proceed without such boxes, whatever the element of arbitrariness in their historic origins and, occasionally, in their subsequent development." Kuhn, T. S.; The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, pp. 5, 1996.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Percy, posted 06-24-2005 8:34 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Percy, posted 06-24-2005 9:06 PM TrueCreation has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 88 of 160 (219438)
06-24-2005 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by TrueCreation
06-24-2005 8:38 PM


Re: CPT and the volume of water.
Well, the subject is " Where did the flood waters come from and where did they go?"
So from what you said, the volume didn't change and it rained. So based on that, the water in the atmosphere had to come from the water on the ground.
That wouold seem to indicate the answer is "that there was no additional water and any increase in water for rain would result in lowering the water level on the ground by an equal volume."
Together so far?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by TrueCreation, posted 06-24-2005 8:38 PM TrueCreation has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Tranquility Base, posted 06-26-2005 11:31 PM jar has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 89 of 160 (219439)
06-24-2005 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by TrueCreation
06-24-2005 8:35 PM


Re: YEC water problem
Percy writes:
Great! So where did the water come from, where did it go, and where's your evidence?
TrueCreation writes:
However, the meat of the answer is in the fact that sealevel has clearly fluctuated by at least hundreds of meters throughout phanerozoic.
The topic of the thread is where did the water come from and where did it go. Fluctuations in sea level due to tectonic processes do not require the addition or subtraction of water.
If you or TB would like to open another thread to discuss the magnitude of sea level fluctuations during the Phanerozoic (TB was only claiming this during the early Palaeozoic, but whatever way you want it is fine) then please open another thread. As I keep trying to point out, it's off-topic for this thread. TB only introduced it because he was trying to argue that mainstream geology has as much a problem with "where did the water come from?" as Creationism.
By the way, Jar is trying to make a different but related point. He has already jumped ahead and assumed you're arguing that CPT does not require added water. He's raising the issue of the rains of the flood because it represents added water. I think he's trying to help you recognize that you've left out what is usually a key component of the traditional Creationist model, namely the rains from the "floodgates of the heavens".
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by TrueCreation, posted 06-24-2005 8:35 PM TrueCreation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by TrueCreation, posted 06-24-2005 9:08 PM Percy has replied
 Message 92 by Minnemooseus, posted 06-24-2005 9:13 PM Percy has not replied
 Message 115 by Tranquility Base, posted 06-26-2005 11:46 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 90 of 160 (219440)
06-24-2005 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by TrueCreation
06-24-2005 8:43 PM


Re: CPT and the volume of water.
TrueCreation writes:
quote:
Am I correct to think this implies that the *thicker* the lithosphere at a given spot, the shallower the ocean at that spot?
No I think you misinterpreted what I was saying. I said:
quote:
The bathymetry of the ocean floor is thereby due to variations in the thickness of the oceanic lithosphere (where thickness is determined by a differentiation from the lower mantle by some isotherm).
That is to say, as the thickness of the oceanic lithosphere changes (where it be an increase or decrease in thickness) bathymetry does as well. The bit I put in parantheses I guess was an unnecessary point.
I know what you said, I'm asking about what you didn't say, which was whether thicker lithosphere at a given point means shallower or deeper oceans at that point? So you're saying that the ocean is deeper when the lithosphere is thicker? Isn't that the opposite of what is normally the case?
quote:
Anyway, whatever the explanation of this apparent contradiction, the question is, "Where did the water come from, and where did it go?" Your scenario does not require water to be added or subtracted, and so there's no reason for you to be addressing this question.
What do you mean? It answeres it because it states that the water that inundated the continents came from and returned to the ocean basins. (edit Therefore the question is answered by CPT via runaway.
You've completely misunderstood the thread's topic. Many Creationist scenarios require the entire planet to be covered even over the highest mountains. This requires more water than exists on earth, hence the question where the water came from to create the flood, and where it went afterwards. If your scenario does not require additional water, then you shouldn't be addressing the question of this thread. It sounds like TB's scenario requires added water, since that's what he was arguing earlier in the thread, but he's so conveniently vague so much of the time that who really knows.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by TrueCreation, posted 06-24-2005 8:43 PM TrueCreation has replied

Replies to this message:
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