Atheism on the Rise

I don't want to be seen as someone who kicks a party when they are down, but yes.I vote Democrat more often than not, but there are planks in the Republican platform that I do agree with. Conservatism at face value is not an entirely terrible thing. However, the conservatism that the Republicans are putting forth (the "face" of the party) is not financial or governmental conservatism. It is religious conservatism. They will continue to have problems gaining ground within the American populace if they continue down this road.Religion is the proverbial tar baby for the Republicans. They got themselves entangled, and it's hard for them to get out.

As I've heard reported, what's happening is that it's mainstream Christianity whose numbers are dwindling. Fundamentalist churches are growing in number, as are atheists/agnostic/unchurched. We're becoming more polarized.

Hi Taq, But they are not robots.Man chooses to do what ever he wants to do.God gave the first man a choice ot know good and evil and he chose to do so.The laws are hardwired in mankind. Some here say by nature, I say by God.I don't know of any other creature that has the ability as man does. Who's pretending?Not me, I said the laws were hardwired into mankind.I didn't say anything about mankind having to choose to do anything good or bad.Mankind simply chooses to do what ever he deems to be right.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Everyone,I was simply addressing a statement made by Sammy Jean. Message 4She had expressed a desire to see Atheist more involved in doing good deeds, and taking the credit for it.Nothing more or less.I personally would appreciate any help we can get.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Rahvin, Morality is different amongst different cultures because of the choices mankind has made down through the ages.Mankind is free to choose to do anything he desires.God Bless,BTW do you mind if I use this message of yours in my Sunday sermon?

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Then we aren't hardwired.

Polarized around what? Whether or not the Bible should be taken literally and used as a political tool? Whether or not God even exists? Perhaps the answer to these questions is more telling than what churches people are going to.

Excuse me? What I said was that I wanted to see it be public what atheist are 'already doing' for charity.I think that atheist are very charitable. We just don't get the credit for it or we don't take the credit for it!And to tell you the truth; when ever dealing with the public I'm always extremely cautious of people that claim "oh you can trust me, I'm a good person, I'm a Christian." I has been my experience in life that it's the good Christians that are the first to fuck you over.

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You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill.
I will choose a path thats clear, I will choose free will. - Neil Peart"Few are those who see with their own eyes and feel with their own hearts." -Albert Einstein"I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief."
~ Gerry Spence

But this is at odds with any claim to an "objective morality." How can humans be simultaneously "hardwired" from birth to understand the Christian God's objective morality, and yet still make completely different determinations regarding morality?You're basically saying that we're all hardwired to like peaches and not like oranges, but that we're free to like oranges if we choose. That doesn't make any sense.Are human beings "hardwired" to know God's objective morality, or not?If so, why do different cultures have completely different concepts of morality?Wouldn't the rational conclusion be that, assuming all human beings are "hardwired" with the same moral standards, we should all independently come to the same conclusions regarding morality across cultures? If not, why not?If you agree, then does not the fact that different cultures hold extremely different views on morality firmly disprove the idea that human beings are "hardwired" with any sort of objective morality? If not, why not? I certainly don't consider my posts here to have any sort of copyright But I'd appreciate it if you'd post the gist of whatever sermon you come up with here on the forum so I can respond to however you use my words.

Hi Rahvin. I don't remember saying anything about a human being hardwired to understand the Christian God's morality. If I did please forgive me.I did say that the laws were hardwired into the mind. Heb. 10:16People are not hardwired to do specific things.The knowledge of good and evil is present in every human because the first man chose to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.What mankind chooses to do is a totally different thing. No, the only one saying that is you. No. God is sovereign His morality is absolute.God's absolute morality is written in mankind's mind.Mankind picks and chooses which he wants to accept and to what extent to practice those parts he chooses to accept. How can one reach a rational conclusion when their mind is already convinced of a certain belief?You are not getting it, that is that the knowledge of good and evil is hardwired.Obedience to either is not hardwired into mankind. He is a free moral agent to choose good or evil. That is what I call free will. The only thing that different cultures holding extremely different views of morality prove is that mankind can convince themselves that what they believe is the absolute truth and everybody else is absolutely wrong.Again mankind is not hardwired to do good or evil.Mankind is hardwired with the knowledge of good and evil and is left to make his choice as to what he chooses to do whether it is good or evil. Send me an e-mail and I will send you a copy of the outline.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Sammy, Anybody that tells me he/she is a Christian, I tell them they are a liar.BTW I pastor a Church.A Christian is a person living a life like Christ did.No one does that period. Message 4

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more atheist participating in charity

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My statement was:

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She had expressed a desire to see Atheist more involved in doing good deeds,

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quote:

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more charitable organizations that are openly atheist

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My statement was:

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and taking the credit for it.

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If that is misinterperting what you said, I apologize.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Taq, You are not hardwired to obey God's moral laws, and I never said mankind was.I said mankind was hardwired with the knowledge of good and evil.Mankind chooses to choose what is good and what is evil that is the reason there are so many different views of what is moral and what is not.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Something's amiss here, ICANT. You're claiming that human beings are hardwired to know right from wrong - that we're hardwired with an intrinsic sense of an objective morality.Then you say that you're claiming no such thing.One of us isn't understanding the other.I said absolutely nothing about obedience. I said:

quote:

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How can humans be simultaneously "hardwired" from birth to understand the Christian God's objective morality,

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This is directly related to your claim that: You're claiming that all human beings, from birth, know good from evil because the laws of objective morality (as described in the Bible) are hardwired into the human mind.Why, then, do different cultures know that different things are good and different things are evil? Should we not all arrive at the same conclusions regarding what good and evil are (regardless of whether we are able to hold ourselves to those standards), since we all are hardwired with the same knowledge?I'm not talking about actions or obedience. I'm talking about what each culture identifies as "good" or "evil." If it's all hardwired identically in every human being, we should all identify the same things as "good" and "evil," should we not? Why, then, do some Christians consider abortion to be a form of murder and evil, while others do not? Why do some people think that killing in the name of their beliefs (whether it be suicide bombing, killing abortion doctors, or what have you) is "good," while everyone else things it's "evil?" Shouldn't we all identify those actions as "good" or "evil" universally, if we're all hardwired with the same knowledge of "good" and "evil?" Let's reword the analogy then.You're saying that we're all hardwired to know that peaches are good, and oranges are bad, yes? We should all "know," instinctively from our hardwiring, that x is good and y is bad?Why then is this not the case? Why do some people identify x as bad, and some as good? Shouldn't we all arrive at the same determination if we're hardwired to "know" that x is either good or bad?Why do some people think peaches are good, and some people think they're bad? If there is an objective truth, and we all know it, why do we not all come to the same conclusion? These statements are contradictory.You are simultaneously saying that "God's absolute morality is written in mankind's mind," and responding that human beings are not hardwired to know God's objective morality.Which is it? Are we hardwired with the knowledge of good and evil, or are we not? I'm convinced only because of the evidence presented to me - the fact that human beings have extremely different standards of morality, which directly contradicts the idea that morality is hardwired identically in all human beings from birth.If you present evidence contrary to my current position, I may change it. You have yet to do so. I haven't been talking about whether human beings act ethically, ICANT. I've been talking about different cultures identifying the same actions differently.If we all "know" good from evil, why do some people think abortion is evil and some do not?If we all "know" good from evil, why do some people think that blood transfusions are evil and some do not?If we all "know" good from evol, why do some people think homosexuality is evil and some do not?If we all "know" good from evil, why do some people think eating meat is evil and some do not?If we all "know" good from evil, why do some people think believing in a different religion is evil and some do not?If we all "know" good from evil, why do some people thinkt hat cannibalism is evil and some do not?If we all "know" good from evil, why do some people think that human sacrifice is evil and some do not?I could go on. I'm not talking about the actions themselves - I'm asking why, if as you and the Bible claim we're all hardwired with the same instinctual "knowledge" of good and evil, we don't consistently identify good and evil in the same way? So you simply dismiss varying moral standards as people "convincing themselves that what they believe is the absolute truth and everybody else is absolutely wrong?"Projecting much, ICANT?What leads you to conclude that human beings are hardwired with identical knowledge of good and evil? What makes you think that human beings "convince themselves" to ignore that knowledge?Since moral standards differ so wildly even within communities, you're suggesting that basically every human being is deluding themselves regarding morality on one point or another (since it's virtually impossible for any two people to agree on every moral question), but that deep down we all "know" the same moral standards. What leads you to believe this?It seems to me that your unbending faith that what you believe is the absolute truth is forcing you to take the position that human beings "convince themselves" to ignore our moral hardwiring, because your beliefs require that moral hardwiring to exist.It seems to me that the rational conclusion to draw from the fact that moral standards differ wildly is that human beings have no such inbuilt moral hardwiring, that morality is a subjective determination influenced primarily by the culture an individual is raised in. What evidence do you believe refutes such a conclusion? Why do you believe it is unreasonable?Is your only reason your unbending faith that what you believe is the absolute truth, and thus when the Bible says that humans are hardwired with the knowledge of good and evil it must be true regardless of any evidence?What would falsify your position that the knowledge of good and evil are hardwired, ICANT? I never said they were, nor did I say that you claimed as much. Again - if we're all hardwired with the exact same knowledge of good and evil, why don't we all identify the same things as good and evil? Why do moral standards differ?

It is I then, that must apologize.Upon rereading my original post it appears as if I was not clear. But I did clarify myself later here Message 6 Message 9 and charified myself directly to you here Message 19And for the record I think that dwise1 summed up my point very well (that I will admit did an awful job at myself) here: Message 21

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You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill.
I will choose a path thats clear, I will choose free will. - Neil Peart"Few are those who see with their own eyes and feel with their own hearts." -Albert Einstein"I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief."
~ Gerry Spence

So will you admit that your conclusions are also not rational since you have a "certain" belief as well? So a child left unattended and uninstructed as to what is good and bad will already know that one or the other choice is good or bad but will choose based off of it's own personal subjective determination?Or is social interaction, parental instructions, upbringing, environment, education, and neuro "wiring", all part of the disciplining process that gives the child a basis for knowing what is good or bad?You said: From birth, or do we need direction from those who have already experienced good and bad? Which can then instruct a child as to what is good and bad, and how to deal with it?You're basically saying that we know better but choose otherwise.

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"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky