Fundamentalists (of all stripes) at it again (Re: Textbook Wars: Religion in History)

It's not fundies causing this. It's multi-culturalism, something you completely ignore.

Not saying you are definately wrong Rand, but am definately saying your's is NOT the only version of the situation in Sudan.http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat2.htm
TOTAL deaths over 20+ years possibly adds up to 2m, NOT just Xian.http://www.geocities.com/dtmcbride/hist/disasters-war.htmlhttp://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/su.html
Sudan population - 40m
Xian - 5% (hint hint 2m)http://usa.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/601

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Asgara
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Sorry, but those stats don't wash. One reason for the stats not looking right is they don't take into account the conversion process. Christianity has grown amidst persecution.One time on NPR, they had a somewhat liberal academic discussing this issue, and he basically said the same thing I say here. It's hard to quantify the numbers of Christians and other non-Moslems killed, some say 2.5 million or so, and some say less, but either way it is fairly massive and with the most horrific atrocities being committed as well.I am sure there are folks out there, like the Holocaust deniers, that try to deny the reports, but there is too much documentation of it. I began following this years before the mainstream media reported it, and it is not just the Sudan, but there is systematic oppression of Christians whereever Islamic statehood types gain power.A Christian minister, a friend of one of my closest friends, stays at his house, said 30 or so years ago in Pakistan, you didn't hear of jihad. This Christian leader knows all the leading Moslem clerics there since he went to school with them (he is Pakistani), and he says even they say they cannot control it. The level of persecution is very intense, severe, and bitter, not as genocidal of course as in the Sudan, but one wonders how long things can persist before the jihad takes on full steam there as well.This message has been edited by randman, 01-27-2006 12:05 AM

Stats is stats...mine, yours, ours.All I said was that your's is NOT the only version of the story.Please show how the numbers listed in my links are wrong and yours are correct. Wow, so anyone who doesn't automatically believe one interpretation of the numbers is compared to a holocaust denier? You are assuming your version is correct.I'm sure there are folks out there, like the boy who cried wolf, that try to deny the reports....

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Asgara
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Btw, the Armenian Massacres listed as 1.5 million killed on one your links can be seen as anti-Christian persecution. Not saying it was wholly religious in nature, but at the same time it's roots in large part reflected centuries long persecution and domination of Christians by Muslims in that area of the world.

It's a war rand, i'm sorry to tell you this but this is what happens in war, its what always happens in wars, its horrible, but it happens everywherethe fact that i don't think its some sort of news flash, or some how special goes to show that this has been going on for centuriesI do care, i care about people not because they are christian, but people, who cares if they are christian - only you seem to think its a bigger deal because they areanyway what does this have to do with the topic, oh yes you brought this up even though its irrelevent to the topic, it just seems to be another one of your martyr trips randmanThis message has been edited by ReverendDG, 01-27-2006 12:16 AM

HOw many do you think have been killed? One of your links says 1.9 million deaths in the Sudan total. Considering that most deaths are the result of government attacks on civilians and not the result of combat, I would say that if we use your numbers, that would indicate something like 1.5 million non-Muslims killed, probably 1 million Christian.Now, is that probably a low estimate? I don't know. It's still quite large.Does it really matter if one million or 2 million were killed? It matters but in the context of this discussion, it is genocidal either way.This message has been edited by randman, 01-27-2006 12:18 AM

No, it's religious war, and there's a difference. There is forced conversion, or face rape, slavery and death. It is very sad you cannot see the difference.These people are being killed because they are not fundamentalist Muslims. In Nigeria, black radical Muslims are backed by Arab money. So even though there is a racial component of Arabization in the Sudan, it is specifically religious in nature, and just naked Islamic aggression and genocide to gain more territory, wealth and even slaves for Islamic jihad.This message has been edited by randman, 01-27-2006 12:22 AM

Partially... I would say the state's lax standards are a result of a reaction to multi-culturalism, however I don't think multiculturalism is supposed to be about re-writing history. But I guess on the state's part I can see a reaction to multi-culturalism.Now, the groups complaining all sound like fundamentalist/ultra-nationalist groups. They want to lie and re-write history to support their own warped version of history.This message has been edited by Mini_Ditka, 01-27-2006 12:23 AM

I don't think anyone has the right to take out anything they don't like from history books, even if it makes one group happy, the whole point of history is to produce factual information about our past, if we allow people to edit history to suit thier feelings, we might as well not have any history booksi mean what group won't want history edited so they are the good guys?

An unnamed Christian minister, who is a friend of a friend, says that 30 years ago you didn't hear of jihad in Pakistan.Well, that certainly supports your assertions about Sudan. How could anyone deny that? At some unknown time on some unknown NPR program a somewhat (whatever the hell that means) academic in some unnamed field said basically what randaman asserts. Or so he claims. So randman resorts to innuendo and implication instead of providing the documentation he claims is out there.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

No, you see religion as the reason, its used as a reason, but its not about religion its about control, every war is faught over control, religious groups are targeted because they can influance enough people to be a problem for the people who want control. if the religous group wasn't there they wouldn't bother to attack themits the same reason the crusades were faught, its the same reason, most any war is faught

That 1.9m is the high number I've seen, and there is nothing that differentiates between who was killed. Your guess that the vast majority of those deaths are xian is just that...your guess.Its a war Rand, both sides die. It is a war based on politics and autonomy, just because part of one side is xian doesn't make the war a religious war. Unless you have some official numbers then both our links are nothing but empty numbers.Sudan Civil WarInteresting history of the wars in the Sudan.

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Asgara
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But that's just because religion and culture are mixed together. The Jewish, Hindu and Islamic groups are catered to because they represent minority cultures in this nation, and the idea is we cannot be fair to their stance since we are from a different culture, and so we should listen to their complaints and respect their wishes. It's not about fundamentalism.

The links are all there, jar, and if you bothered to practice what you preach, you wouldn't be coming down on the side of denying reality and belitting Christians being persecuted abroad, but then again, I wouldn't expect much else from you. Some of us beleive when we see our brother naked, in prison, hungry, etc,...that we help, and as we do, our passions are aroused, maybe too much, and we speak out. My close friend, who married my wife's sister so is a relative now as well, reached out and decided to help a Pakistani "bishop" and see what he could to help those Christians there. Yea, I think the bishop's accounts are real, and that it is important to tell people here what is happening around the world.You read about the recent attacks on Christians in India? Well, I have spoken with the bishop leading those missions; have friends that help over there, and may well go or my daughter may go soon as well to help, and other friends and acquaintances involved in missions work overseas. I provided links, but I included what I hear personally from people that put their lives on the line to help peoplel, and yea, I think what they say has a lot of stock in what they say.I suppose you feel nice and comfortable just lobbing cheap shots at those that care, however.This message has been edited by randman, 01-27-2006 12:41 AM