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Author Topic:   Fundamentalists (of all stripes) at it again (Re: Textbook Wars: Religion in History)
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1597 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 136 of 194 (284243)
02-05-2006 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by randman
02-05-2006 6:42 PM


the aclu and religious liberty
You never heard of the ACLU and it's lawsuits against school districts?
what, this aclu? or this one? or maybe this one? i think the problem is that you have an "us v. them" mentality, and anyone who does something that is superficially against your religion is a "them." what you don't seem to understand is that the aclu fervently defends the 1st amendment -- including the right to feely practice religion in whatever way you choose. in this country, that right is ensured by keeping government out of religion. they're not trying to protect government from religion, they're trying to protect religion from government.
keeping religion out of school is one way to do that. teaching one religion promotes it over others -- something you only disagree with because it's your religion being promoted. but in america we protect liberties by protecting them for everyone, not just a select few. can you imagine if they taught islamic creationism in schools? or hindu? or buddhist? your freedom to practice your religion is gauranteed because of the neutral playing field: because everyone can practice whatever religion they want without government intervention of any kind. the only way to protect religion is to keep government out of it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by randman, posted 02-05-2006 6:42 PM randman has not replied

  
ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4364 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 137 of 194 (284282)
02-05-2006 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by randman
02-05-2006 6:44 PM


Re: Fundimentalism, as per message 1, is not just Christian fundamentalism
It's probably hopeless buzz. Percy is just going to deny reality, and claim no knowledge of secularists' attempts to take religion out of education....
How about you find some evidence of your claims, instead of making the claim over again?

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22941
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 138 of 194 (284301)
02-06-2006 3:30 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by randman
02-05-2006 6:42 PM


Re: Fundimentalism, as per message 1, is not just Christian fundamentalism
You never heard of the ACLU and it's lawsuits against school districts?
Take as much time as you like to reply, but when you return please at least take the trouble to read back through the thread to refamiliarize yourself with it and to find any replies you might have missed. My last reply to you was Message 119, where I say something I'd already said several times:
Now you're getting a little closer to being on-topic. Do you have any examples? Lawsuits to restore the original condition after successful lobbying of publishers and/or school boards by religious groups don't qualify, of course. You need an example of a secular group using litigation to bypass scholarship to have their own particular viewpoints represented in textbooks and/or school curriculums.
Next time please do your own homework.
--Percy

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22941
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 139 of 194 (284302)
02-06-2006 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by randman
02-05-2006 6:44 PM


Re: Fundimentalism, as per message 1, is not just Christian fundamentalism
randman writes:
It's probably hopeless buzz. Percy is just going to deny reality, and claim no knowledge of secularists' attempts to take religion out of education....
Since I'm willing to correct your inaccurate characterizations of what I'm saying as often as you make them, I'm not sure what you think you're accomplishing by repeating them.
Naturally efforts like those of creationists to put religion into the classroom are opposed by secularists. But you have claimed that secularists have done and are doing the same thing as the religious groups described in the article of the opening post. These religious groups are bypassing scholarship to lobby publishers and schools boards for favorable representations of their religions in history books. Do you have any examples of secular groups doing the same thing for their views?
Let's get specific. Your big example earlier in this thread was the Reformation. Do you have examples of any secular groups promoting views of the Reformation not supported by scholarship by lobbying publishers and schools boards?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by randman, posted 02-05-2006 6:44 PM randman has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Silent H, posted 02-07-2006 6:52 AM Percy has replied
 Message 145 by Buzsaw, posted 02-07-2006 11:32 AM Percy has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 6073 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 140 of 194 (284543)
02-07-2006 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Percy
02-06-2006 3:39 AM


Re: Fundimentalism, as per message 1, is not just Christian fundamentalism
Since I'm willing to correct your inaccurate characterizations of what I'm saying as often as you make them, I'm not sure what you think you're accomplishing by repeating them.
Whew, good thing no mods saw this. I mean that's what I was doing when I got censored (as in prevented from doing so), and when I asked questions about it YOU told me to let it go and suggested it was a personal problem.
Maybe YOU should let it go? Maybe you should get a thicker skin?
Heheheh... just to let you know, I'm not angry or anything. Just laughing at the fact that I knew it was a real issue and you just wanted to pretend like it wasn't.
But back on topic...
But you have claimed that secularists have done and are doing the same thing as the religious groups described in the article of the opening post. These religious groups are bypassing scholarship to lobby publishers and schools boards for favorable representations of their religions in history books. Do you have any examples of secular groups doing the same thing for their views?
In a way I do. Remember my thread on the rind study? That was a movement by secular and religious groups to alter not just textbooks, but journals by legal fiat, to create an image of human behavior consistent with a single moral viewpoint.
I think its safe to say that secularists will resort to legal action, when they feel any of their viewpoints (of any nature) are being misrepresented, or facts which will deny their beliefs are presented.
Maybe a fair question is how many textbooks are printed by nonsecular sources in the first place, and put into school curricula in the second. Given that secularists did reverse the nature of school curricula (bibles used to be part of it in some areas) to favor secular only products, perhaps it just makes sense that most challenges come from nonsecular sources?
That's not to say we should give in to factual distortion and revisionism in texts, just why it is the way it is.
This message has been edited by holmes, 02-07-2006 12:54 PM

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Percy, posted 02-06-2006 3:39 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Percy, posted 02-07-2006 10:02 AM Silent H has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22941
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 141 of 194 (284562)
02-07-2006 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Silent H
02-07-2006 6:52 AM


Re: Fundimentalism, as per message 1, is not just Christian fundamentalism
holmes writes:
Remember my thread on the rind study?
I haven't read the thread.
I think its safe to say that secularists will resort to legal action, when they feel any of their viewpoints (of any nature) are being misrepresented, or facts which will deny their beliefs are presented.
My argument wasn't about whether secularists resorting to legal action when their think their views are misrepresented. It was about Randman's contention that secular groups had done the same thing as the religious groups described in the article of the opening post, which is to lobby publishers and school boards for changes not supported by scholarship. Legal action, while more coercive, is pretty much the same thing, so I see no problem including it, too.
If you think some of the evidence from your Rind thread is appropriate, my suggestion is to bring it here to this thread.
If you have off-topic moderator comments you'd like to make, I suggest you make them in the appropriate thread.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Silent H, posted 02-07-2006 6:52 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Omnivorous, posted 02-07-2006 10:23 AM Percy has replied
 Message 148 by Silent H, posted 02-07-2006 12:29 PM Percy has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 128 days)
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 142 of 194 (284567)
02-07-2006 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Percy
02-07-2006 10:02 AM


Does seeking relief under the law=lobbying?
Percy writes:
My argument wasn't about whether secularists resorting to legal action when their think their views are misrepresented. It was about Randman's contention that secular groups had done the same thing as the religious groups described in the article of the opening post, which is to lobby publishers and school boards for changes not supported by scholarship. Legal action, while more coercive, is pretty much the same thing, so I see no problem including it, too.
They seem quite different to me, Percy.
To gain relief in court, the plaintiff would first have to demonstrate that the text at issue falls under the purview of the law (e.g., violates the establishment clause) or violates other Constitutional or statutory proscriptions (e.g., discrminates on the basis of race, religion, etc.). To any of these challenges, the defense claim of factuality or scholarly consensus would (or at least should) be effective.
The opening post described efforts to use lobbying to press for changes that were contrary to either historical record or good scholarship or both.
An effort that depends largely on political pressure appears substantively different from an effort that depends on the law to support one's case before an impartial judge and/or jury. The difference between the two seems as large as that between reasoned debate and shouting.

"Dost thou think because thou art virtuous there shall be no more cakes and ale?"
-Sir Toby Belch, Twelfth Night
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Percy, posted 02-07-2006 10:02 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Percy, posted 02-07-2006 10:33 AM Omnivorous has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22941
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 143 of 194 (284569)
02-07-2006 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Omnivorous
02-07-2006 10:23 AM


Re: Does seeking relief under the law=lobbying?
I wasn't tyring to equate the lobbying avenues with the legal. I was trying to get Randman to support his contention that secularists are doing the same thing as the religious groups described in the article of the opening post. The closest he came was making vague accusations of legal action by secularist groups. With Randman you can't be too picky, so if that's as close as he can come to supporting his original contention then I'm happy to let him go with it.
AbE: I don't think I was clear enough above. When I said legal action was pretty much the same thing I only meant with regard to the motivation, in this case to forward one's views by bypassing scholarship. In other words, if Randman would like to present examples of secular groups seeking representation by legal means of views contrary to scholarship in support of his contention that secular groups do the same thing as the religious groups in the article, then I think for the sake of this discussion that that is close enough.
--Percy
This message has been edited by Percy, 02-07-2006 10:56 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Omnivorous, posted 02-07-2006 10:23 AM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 153 by randman, posted 02-07-2006 2:07 PM Percy has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 128 days)
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 144 of 194 (284570)
02-07-2006 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Percy
02-07-2006 10:33 AM


Then lower the bar one notch, not two
Point taken, Percy.
Ideally, then (well, just a little less than), Randman should point to cases where secularists went to court to force counterfactual changes in textbooks to pretty up their own history.
My inner idealist dies hard.

"Dost thou think because thou art virtuous there shall be no more cakes and ale?"
-Sir Toby Belch, Twelfth Night
Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
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This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 145 of 194 (284576)
02-07-2006 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Percy
02-06-2006 3:39 AM


Re: Fundimentalism, as per message 1, is not just Christian fundamentalism
Percy writes:
Naturally efforts like those of creationists to put religion into the classroom are opposed by secularists. But you have claimed that secularists have done and are doing the same thing as the religious groups described in the article of the opening post. These religious groups are bypassing scholarship to lobby publishers and schools boards for favorable representations of their religions in history books. Do you have any examples of secular groups doing the same thing for their views?
Let's get specific. Your big example earlier in this thread was the Reformation. Do you have examples of any secular groups promoting views of the Reformation not supported by scholarship by lobbying publishers and schools boards?
Hi Percy. I know this was a response to Randman, but I'd like to address your question as well. Without going back, I believe it was I who first brought up the reformation as an example.
I have exerpts from a link in this regard as follows: I have emboldened notable phrases or sentences for emphasis.
Jewish graduate student writes:
Religion in the Academy
I am a graduate student in History at Indiana University. Since First Things has given continuing attention to the place of religion in higher education, I thought you might appreciate hearing from a sympathetic reader-one who is female and Jewish-concerning the blatant discrimination against Christianity and "religious motives" in academe, and especially in History departments.
When I applied to IU (my abe: Indiana University) in 1991, I stated in my letter of purpose that I was interested in scholasticism and Church history, Reformation history, and a myriad of related subjects (e.g., medieval psychology, the Aristotelian tradition, the rise of the universities, etc.), which I believed fell within the discipline of history. Now after three semesters I am being told by my department that I need to transfer into some other department such as Religious Studies or Philosophy if I want to study the history of the Church or scholasticism, as these topics no longer fall within the discipline of history. "No one does that sort of thing anymore," they say.
Looking at earlier catalogues, this was not the case several years ago, or even two years ago, when there were faculty in the History Department who could teach more general sorts of Medieval History courses, which included the history of the Church. Now all we get are courses on "medieval sexuality" and "medieval women's spirituality" taught from a feminist perspective in which the Church is the enemy. There has been no effort to balance the curriculum; semester after semester it is the same thing.
............... the faculty with whom I had hoped to study, who taught more traditional courses, had either already retired or were on the verge of doing so.
These sorts of things are not so unusual, I now know, from talking to graduate students at other universities. ................the remaining faculty in my area actively discourage research in religious history and in what I call the "intellectual history" of the Western world. ........... while the catalogue says that the History Department "encourages interdisciplinary approaches," the reality is that, unless you want to do something on "medieval women" or "medieval sexuality," the department will not accommodate your interdisciplinary interests.
Women's spirituality, lesbian nuns, eating disorders, "Jesus as mother," transvestisms, and a myriad of other more popular topics are deemed to be "on the cutting edge" by the professors here, who call this "intellectual history." But in these courses you never hear about the real intellectuals of the medieval period, since they happened to be theologians and male.
In the literature and in history textbooks, religious motivations and idealistic intentions of historical figures, if male, are always rejected and replaced with more mundane and cynical explanations linked to "power" and personal gain. Humanism, for example, in contemporary scholarship is treated solely as "a money-making proposition," or as "a pathway to professionalism by the ruling elite," and the ethical and religious component of the humanist movement (Petrarch, Erasmus, etc.) is completely missed. Students are not taught that the Classics were once valued by society as a way of instilling morality and goodness in its citizens-everything now has to be depicted as part of some sinister plot or conspiracy.
My department has recently decided that it isn't feasible to hire someone to teach Reformation history (replacing Gerald Strauss, who retired a few years ago). When I asked why an area as rich and as important as the Reformation would no longer be taught (or if taught on occasion, by someone whose expertise is eighteenth-century France), I was told by faculty members that the Reformation simply isn't fashionable any more.
...........women's studies and Jewish studies courses are routinely cross- listed. Medieval Philosophy, without doubt a significant part of the intellectual history of the Middle Ages, will not be accepted here towards the History M.A. because it doesn't fit into the political agenda of the department.
Since I am female and not a Christian, I do not run the risk of being labeled a sexist or a religious fanatic by demanding (not that it will do much good) that medieval history include Church history, or that Reformation history be taught, or for wanting religion to be at least considered as a possible motive in interpreting human action. And I have a 3.8 GPA so that no one can say that I have other motivations. . . .
Emily Nedell
Bloomington, IN[
http://www.leaderu.com/ftissues/ft9404/correspondence.html
So Percy, in answer to you question as to who's doing the textbook revising, I'd say that unlike religious groups, here you have secularists in general, as their "groups" are not as difinitive as religious groups. America is following the path of Europe in that the general population is being gradually academically indoctrinated into secularism. It seems from the above that the secularizing buck stops with academia and media in general. The universities who educate the teachers are being taken over by secularists, who have themselves been gradually more secularized in school, by mainstream media, activist judges and by legislation such as the removal of the Bible and such from the schools, thanks to folks like Madelyn Murray O'hare's athiest organization and others of like mind.
Abe: Changed "two links" to one link.
This message has been edited by buzsaw, 02-07-2006 11:35 AM

Gravity is God's glue that holds his universe together.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Percy, posted 02-06-2006 3:39 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Percy, posted 02-07-2006 11:55 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 147 by jar, posted 02-07-2006 12:10 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 150 by Omnivorous, posted 02-07-2006 12:41 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22941
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 146 of 194 (284582)
02-07-2006 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Buzsaw
02-07-2006 11:32 AM


Re: Fundimentalism, as per message 1, is not just Christian fundamentalism
Hi Buz,
We've been over this ground before. I said pretty much the same thing in a reply to you earlier in this thread, check out Message 125.
No one is questioning (or at least I'm not) that the country has become increasingly secularized. The article of the OP described religious groups bypassing scholarship to gain favorable treatment for their views in textbooks by lobbying publishers and school boards. Randman said secular groups do the same thing, and I replied, not once but many times now, that I have no idea what he's talking about and could he please provide some examples. So far he's provided nothing, his standard operating procedure. Holmes says he has some examples from another thread, perhaps he'll post them here.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Buzsaw, posted 02-07-2006 11:32 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Buzsaw, posted 02-07-2006 9:01 PM Percy has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 147 of 194 (284586)
02-07-2006 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Buzsaw
02-07-2006 11:32 AM


But Buz...
your link does not support your assertion. What the student claims is that Religious Studies, Church History, are being taught as Religious Studies or Philosophy.
Surprised?
How does this support secularization in anyway?
The only place that the student makes anything that approaches a supported statement involves the decision to not replace a retired professor. In that one case, the reason is asserted to be that it was not "fashionable". Frankly, that implies there would not be enough students paying for the course to support the costs.
As you should know from reading my threads and posts here at EvC, I support the idea that Sacred Studies should be part of every general education, from the lowest grades right on through advanced education. But we should also teach the histroy of what really happened and not some sanitized version. It's important for example, to show that historically, Christianity has been if not the least tolerant of all religions, one of the least tolerant.
Christianity has contributed much, and certainly it has been a driving force forming the world we see today. However that influence was not always benign.
Are you and other Christians willing to see the actual history taught the way it happened, to show both sides of the issue, the good and bad, the warts and wonders?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Buzsaw, posted 02-07-2006 11:32 AM Buzsaw has replied

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 6073 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 148 of 194 (284588)
02-07-2006 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Percy
02-07-2006 10:02 AM


Re: Fundimentalism, as per message 1, is not just Christian fundamentalism
If you think some of the evidence from your Rind thread is appropriate, my suggestion is to bring it here to this thread.
Some of it is appropriate. In fact most of it is. I'm not about to cut n paste it all here. Here's the synopsis: A series of studies and then one large scale study regarding the child sexuality did not sit well with religious and secular groups because it stood in contrast to moral beliefs of all of them.
The study(ies) were peer reviewed and accepted by the APsychologicalA, and defended by them for some time. The APsychiatricA stood against it the entire time, with no evidence other than moral condemnation. Eventually this went to the congress and under pressure the first APA gave in. At this point both of the top psych orgs as well as the congress have agreed to censor all research (which they control) on child sexuality, and that would include textbooks on the subject, so that it represents and supports public and legal opinion on the subject.
This is in spite of the fact that the AAS went back and reviewed the studies and said all critics were engaging in demagoguery, and that there was no problems with them.
Total political pressure by secular and religious groups to rewrite science scholarship to support moral "facts".
If you have off-topic moderator comments you'd like to make, I suggest you make them in the appropriate thread.
You need a thicker skin. snicker snicker.

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Percy, posted 02-07-2006 10:02 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Percy, posted 02-07-2006 12:54 PM Silent H has replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4313 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 149 of 194 (284591)
02-07-2006 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by crashfrog
01-25-2006 8:18 PM


Re: multi-culturalism
Michael Savage? Who was recently awarded several times by the AP?
This was a rather stunning statement to read. I looked on Google, but I couldn't find any reference to these awards. I was already quite surprised that anyone let Michael Savage talk on their radio station, but I figured ratings are ratings, and money must be more important that worries about what Michael Savage might say next. But that someone actually gave him an award for something?
Please tell me this is some statistical award, like most listeners for an evening show or something.
I remember in the 1980's, when we heard that the USA's top-rated TV show would be debuting on the Armed Forces Network in Germany. We didn't own a TV back then, but we were curious enough about this celebrated program to go to a friend's house to watch it. When we saw a woman stand in a kitchen for a half hour and insult the people that walked through, we wondered what had happened to America while we were in Germany.
Hearing that Michael Savage won AP awards arouses exactly the same feeling. Say it's not so!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by crashfrog, posted 01-25-2006 8:18 PM crashfrog has replied

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Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 128 days)
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 150 of 194 (284592)
02-07-2006 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Buzsaw
02-07-2006 11:32 AM


Markets and Axe Grinding
Hi, Buz.
I sympathize with the lady--she didn't understand that an academic department's course listing does not mean every course will be taught within an M.A. rotation. In fact, even courses listed within a specific semester catalog will not run unless sufficent numbers of students register for the course.
Universities truly are marketplaces of ideas. Departments will not run courses that consistently fail to fill. There is no secular conspiracy there. Nor will academic departments gladly cross-list with other departments--their departmental access to university funding, staffing, and other resources depend on their courses filling and running, not another department's.
Even without considering the above points, I'm not surprised that a Medieval Philosophy course would not be accepted toward an M.A.--there isn't much room for "electives" with an M.A.
She could, of course, still take those courses in other departments; there is absolutely no bar to doing so. She'd have to work a little harder and longer, of course. I'm sure Philosophy and Religious Studies departments offer many courses in her area of interest: interdisciplinary does not mean accepting any other course from any other department towards one's own departmental standard. It does mean that her graduate advisor would help her coordinate any extra-departmental work with her History Dept. efforts. When you want something that is less demanded, you generally have to work harder for it.
The law of supply and demand, the invisible hand of the marketplace--that's all that is happening here. I would think a conservative would applaud those market functions. She may be "female and not a Christian...[and so] not run the risk of being labeled a sexist or a religious fanatic" but she certainly has an axe to grind, eh?
There are market forces in education, and they have inconvenienced her. There are also thousands of universities and history departments in the U.S. with diverse interests and areas of specialty: she didn't do her homework.
BTW, a 3.8 GPA for a graduate student is no great shakes--C's are generally considered catastrophes, and B's are a caution.
DISCLAIMER: I.U. alumnus.

"Dost thou think because thou art virtuous there shall be no more cakes and ale?"
-Sir Toby Belch, Twelfth Night
Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Buzsaw, posted 02-07-2006 11:32 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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