Fundamentalists (of all stripes) at it again (Re: Textbook Wars: Religion in History)

Sounds like the liberal trumpeting of multi-culturalism, often imo masking a motive to demonize religious conservatives and their idea of universal values, is coming back to bite them. Can't offend anyone, except Christians of course. So Jewish and Hindu groups demand rewrites of history and are succeeding. Not that surprising really.This message has been edited by randman, 01-25-2006 04:43 PM

Crash, Christians have begun to voice their opinion, and some have pulled shows because they will lose money, but no sane, objective person would deny that one of the few groups you can openly mock and express the vilest hatred of are Christians.Just take any mean-spirited commentary or even art towards Christianity, and substitute the same thing for Jews or African-Americans, and consider that the response would be. For example, let's say you decided to create harsh anti-Jewish art, (well maybe you could now with the left's anti-Israeli campaign), but a few years back, imagine art that was meant to publicly deride or seemed to, Jewish identity and religion, as say, putting a crucifix in a jar of urine or something along those lines was towards Christ. There would be an outcry, or would have been, and people saying the artist was a NAZI or some such.Or, how about a Klansman celebrating the past abuse of African-Americans?But a liberal can rave all they want and demonize Christians all they want with the worst slander, the vilest insults, etc,...with nearly no censure from the multi-culturalists, and this despite the fact that globally, Christians have been as persecuted or more persecuted than the Jews.Is there sympathy or even a hint of sensitivity because Christians in the Third World and communist nations were and are sometimes horribly mistreated, persecuted, tortured, raped and murdered for their faith?Nope.The anti-Christian liberals' attitude is akin to people making jokes about the Jews being gassed in the 40s.This message has been edited by randman, 01-25-2006 04:57 PM

Crash, you've got a seriously twisted view of soceity and the world. Yea, Christians have 3 cable channels. Decidedly non-Christians or people with non-biblical worldviews control nearly all the rest, and yet somehow you think the 3 channels are a majority? What the heck! No more than liberals spew towards conservatives, imho, but either way, one expects political discourse to advance their cause and belittle their opponent's ideas. That is qualitatively different than attacking people for their religious beliefs, as many liberals and secularists do towards Christians.On the point of Christians not being persecuted here, neither for the most part are Jews, but that doesn't mean someone spewing anti-semitic bile should be celebrated, and yet it's OK with you to spew the worst insults and smears, I suspect, towards Christians without any regard to the fact that hatred of Christians results in millions of Christians being killed.

Yea, and Hitler had "any number of reasons" I suppose as well for killing Jews. The fact is millions and millions of Christians have been slaughtered in the last 100 years for their faith, and that reason only. Islamic radicals kill Christians over their faith, and communist nations have as well. The light dismissal of such genocide, imo, speaks volumes, but in all fairness, probably more of your ignorance of the levels of persecution since it is often never reported by the press.

I suppose I could quote some liberals here at EVC, but that might start a nasty fight.

I think it's fairly clear that there are areas in our soceity more dominated by secularists and liberals, and that 2 of those areas are the media/entertainment industry and academia.Now, I will admit some other areas, perhaps the military, are dominated by conservatives, but I am not aware of any major area of soceity, except religion, dominated by Christians.Furthermore, I never claimed American Christians are persecuted, and you know that, but you dishonestly avoid my whole point as you do in general. The point is as Jews have been persecuted due to anti-semitism globally so have Christians globally, but people like you have no problem stoking anti-Christian bigotry and hatred, and as such, you remind me of the neo-NAZIs in your bigotry.

You must not be looking very hard. Over 2 million have been killed in the Sudan alone by Islamic jihad. In Pakistan, Egypt, and many other Islamic nations, Christians are bitterly persecuted, raped, tortured, etc,..Probably the worst anti-Christian persecution stemmed from the communists, in the former Soviet Union and Eastern bloc, but also in China (even today), in Vietnam, in Cuba, and other communist nations.

Your ignorance is incredibly thick with confusion. First off, persecution of religious belief is not the same as persecution of peoples, except in areas like the Sudan where animists and Christians are persecuted by the jihadis. It's probably a waste of time talking with you because you evidently don't care.One of things that occurs in the Sudan or did until recently in a widespread manner was that jihadis would capture Christian girls and make them sex slaves, sometimes as young as 9 years old, and the boys they would chain up in a Madrassa-type school forcing them to memoraize the Koran, and if they would not renounce Christ, make them into slaves. Yes, they practice slavery there. Some other atrocities include cutting women's breasts off so they cannot breast-feed their babies, after spraying crops with chemicals from the air, crucifying men, using chemical weapons on villages, etc,...sometimes Moslems witnessing the heroism of Christians and their message of religious liberty for all have actually turned to fight with the Christians.Anyway, I can only speculate as to why someone like yourself has never bothered to pay attention to such slaughters.some links for you...if you care so much, do some readinghere's a good personal account I likehttp://users.frii.com/gosplow/2ffn97a.htmland a bunch of other links that you can perusehttp://home.earthlink.net/~drbettyh/Sudanpage.htm
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Persecution of Christians - Wikipedia
http://www.barnabasfund.org/archivenews/
http://www.copts.net/index.asp
Christian Persecution Information - ...never forgetting the Christians who are persecuted
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Sucuri WebSite Firewall - Access Denied
Sudan: The Passion of the Present: I mean all these sites come up very quickly on google, and much more, and yet you deny reality. You think the 2 million Christians and animists the Moslem fundamentalists killed in the Sudan, and the 600K-1million they enslaved is just fabricated???

My reaction to your statement is one of personal digust. What an offensive, ungodly and heartless comment devoid of any sense of humanity, dignity and morality. I suppose you can say the Holocaust killed gypsies and others too so the NAZIs were not really anti-semitic by your reasoning. I never claimed the communists and radical Moslems only kill and persecute Christians, contrary to what you claim.Why don't you take some time to read first-hand reports of what occurs to the people being persecuted and then get back to us on it.This message has been edited by randman, 01-26-2006 11:41 PM

It's not fundies causing this. It's multi-culturalism, something you completely ignore.

Sorry, but those stats don't wash. One reason for the stats not looking right is they don't take into account the conversion process. Christianity has grown amidst persecution.One time on NPR, they had a somewhat liberal academic discussing this issue, and he basically said the same thing I say here. It's hard to quantify the numbers of Christians and other non-Moslems killed, some say 2.5 million or so, and some say less, but either way it is fairly massive and with the most horrific atrocities being committed as well.I am sure there are folks out there, like the Holocaust deniers, that try to deny the reports, but there is too much documentation of it. I began following this years before the mainstream media reported it, and it is not just the Sudan, but there is systematic oppression of Christians whereever Islamic statehood types gain power.A Christian minister, a friend of one of my closest friends, stays at his house, said 30 or so years ago in Pakistan, you didn't hear of jihad. This Christian leader knows all the leading Moslem clerics there since he went to school with them (he is Pakistani), and he says even they say they cannot control it. The level of persecution is very intense, severe, and bitter, not as genocidal of course as in the Sudan, but one wonders how long things can persist before the jihad takes on full steam there as well.This message has been edited by randman, 01-27-2006 12:05 AM

Btw, the Armenian Massacres listed as 1.5 million killed on one your links can be seen as anti-Christian persecution. Not saying it was wholly religious in nature, but at the same time it's roots in large part reflected centuries long persecution and domination of Christians by Muslims in that area of the world.

HOw many do you think have been killed? One of your links says 1.9 million deaths in the Sudan total. Considering that most deaths are the result of government attacks on civilians and not the result of combat, I would say that if we use your numbers, that would indicate something like 1.5 million non-Muslims killed, probably 1 million Christian.Now, is that probably a low estimate? I don't know. It's still quite large.Does it really matter if one million or 2 million were killed? It matters but in the context of this discussion, it is genocidal either way.This message has been edited by randman, 01-27-2006 12:18 AM

No, it's religious war, and there's a difference. There is forced conversion, or face rape, slavery and death. It is very sad you cannot see the difference.These people are being killed because they are not fundamentalist Muslims. In Nigeria, black radical Muslims are backed by Arab money. So even though there is a racial component of Arabization in the Sudan, it is specifically religious in nature, and just naked Islamic aggression and genocide to gain more territory, wealth and even slaves for Islamic jihad.This message has been edited by randman, 01-27-2006 12:22 AM

But that's just because religion and culture are mixed together. The Jewish, Hindu and Islamic groups are catered to because they represent minority cultures in this nation, and the idea is we cannot be fair to their stance since we are from a different culture, and so we should listen to their complaints and respect their wishes. It's not about fundamentalism.