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Author Topic:   Vapour canopy and fountains of the deep
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 91 of 144 (507783)
05-08-2009 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by lyx2no
05-08-2009 1:28 AM


Re: Up, Up, and Away
lyx2no writes:
The only source for the water would be a miracle. And miracles are not subject to cause and effect, and need leave no evidence of their happening. That may be the reason that God had to tell us about it instead of there being plentiful evidence that we might see for ourselves.
thats where I differ because i see that 70% of the earth is covered by water and I look at that as evidence of the earth being flooded by water.
Like i said, i dont know how the water vapor was kept aloft according to Genesis, and doesnt concern me that I dont know how such things happened, instead i accept that it happened because God has the power to do it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by lyx2no, posted 05-08-2009 1:28 AM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Taz, posted 05-08-2009 2:24 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 95 by Huntard, posted 05-08-2009 3:54 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 104 by lyx2no, posted 05-08-2009 1:19 PM Peg has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 92 of 144 (507785)
05-08-2009 2:24 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Peg
05-08-2009 2:15 AM


Re: Up, Up, and Away
Peg writes:
Like i said, i dont know how the water vapor was kept aloft according to Genesis...
You've forgotten something. Consider the following question: Which is heavier, 1 tone of feather or 1 tone of brick?
The answer is they both weigh the same. If such a vapour canopy really existed, it would have crushed everything on Earth. 1 ton of liquid water weighs the same as 1 ton of water vapour. If there was enough water vapour above the Earth's surface so that when it liquified there was enough water to cover the whole Earth, nothing could have survived under such a tremendous pressure.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Peg, posted 05-08-2009 2:15 AM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Percy, posted 05-08-2009 9:36 AM Taz has replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 93 of 144 (507789)
05-08-2009 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Peg
05-08-2009 2:05 AM


Re: Troll Alert?
this is getting ridiculous! Such water shortages on earth and scientists can readily make water
Are you drunk or otherwise chemically impaired? I'm stunned by the ignorance/stupidity of your "Oxygen and Hydrogen dont just mix together to become water...it takes vasts amounts of energy to create water...so much energy that scientists cannot produce enough energy to create water from the two gasses..." statement, and then you manage to top it with the above quoted.
I think you need to tighten up the quality of your act.
Or something like that.
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Adminnemooseus

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Please make it easy to tell you apart from the idiots. Source

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Peg, posted 05-08-2009 2:05 AM Peg has not replied

  
Son
Member (Idle past 3830 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 94 of 144 (507792)
05-08-2009 3:38 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Peg
05-08-2009 2:05 AM


Re: Troll Alert?
While i understand you haven't learnt chemistry in class, I think you should try to learn a bit before writing.
How do you think fuel cell work? And where would scientists take the hydrogen to make water?
Hint: Hydrogen - Wikipedia
wikipedia writes:
Elemental hydrogen is relatively rare on Earth. Industrial production is from hydrocarbons
And wiki again: Hydrogen vehicle - Wikipedia
wikipedia writes:
In fuel-cell conversion, the hydrogen is reacted with oxygen to produce water and electricity, the latter being used to power an electric traction motor.
Meaning that 2H + O = H2O + Energy
While I just did the research for you here, it would be nice if you did it yourself next time. It's a bit annoying to deal with your ignorance while debating, it wastes everyone's time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Peg, posted 05-08-2009 2:05 AM Peg has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 95 of 144 (507793)
05-08-2009 3:54 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Peg
05-08-2009 2:15 AM


Re: Up, Up, and Away
Peg writes:
thats where I differ because i see that 70% of the earth is covered by water and I look at that as evidence of the earth being flooded by water.
Let me get this straight.
You take the fact that the entire Earth is only covered by about three quarters in water, and see that as evidence that it can be covered completely?
Am I the only one not seeing the logic here?

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Peg, posted 05-08-2009 2:15 AM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Taz, posted 05-08-2009 11:54 AM Huntard has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 96 of 144 (507806)
05-08-2009 8:26 AM


Moderator Advisory
To those who aren't Peg: I think honest ignorance should be treated respectfully, but I recognize how difficult this is when combined with a sort of chutzpah, so...
To those who are Peg: How respectfully and seriously do you think I'd be treated if I entered a Christian discussion board claiming that Groundhog Day celebrates the day Jesus rose from the dead, cast aside the stone at the cave's entrance, walked out into the sunshine and saw his shadow? When I persisted in this, wouldn't my obvious lack of any sincere attempt to inform myself mean I deserved the derision and disrespect I received? Wouldn't this lack of any effort on my part be itself a form of disrespect in the way it wasted the time of sincere Christians who honestly want to help me understand Christianity?
To the others here you seem to be exhibiting a profound lack of any inclination to inform yourself about science. You are speculating about science in ways as ridiculous as the Resurrection being the origin of Groundhog Day. Anyone can speculate about anything, but not all speculations are meaningful. I mean, maybe Lot's wife wasn't really his wife, maybe she was really Moses's wife, and maybe Soddom and Gomorrah were really Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and maybe God is really Santa Claus. How profound must someone's ignorance of Christianity be to believe such nonsense? Could such profound ignorance even be possible?
This is what some people here are beginning to wonder about you and your ignorance of science, whether you're for real or are just pulling our collective leg. I don't have any specific advice I can give you, but please try to find ways that make it easier for people to take you seriously. One way you might begin is by treating scientific ideas with respect instead of with what appears to be casual dismissal, just as we try to insist here that people treat religious ideas with respect.
Edited by Admin, : Grammar.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 97 of 144 (507809)
05-08-2009 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Peg
05-08-2009 12:30 AM


Re: bump for creationist contribution
Peg writes:
Percy writes:
In other words, you're asking us if we can prove something impossible.
its not impossible to know how much land is beneath the seas.
Gosh, Peg, it's like you're not even trying. It's like you didn't read my message (you certainly didn't understand it) and no longer recall the point you were trying to make.
I think it would not be a good idea to give you yet another post to reply to. I'll just say that you need to somehow figure out how to do a better job here.
If you don't have any ideas for how to accomplish this, then I guess I could make a few suggestions. You might try focusing on just one detail at a time and following it through to a resolution instead of responding to many little details. This would mean not responding to everyone. You might also try reading messages several times to see if you're really capturing what they're trying to say. Another thing that might help is to consider the implications of your ideas. Try to figure out if they really make sense before posting them.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Peg, posted 05-08-2009 12:30 AM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Son, posted 05-08-2009 9:24 AM Percy has replied

  
Son
Member (Idle past 3830 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 98 of 144 (507820)
05-08-2009 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Percy
05-08-2009 8:37 AM


Re: bump for creationist contribution
I wondered if we could agree to ask Peg to anwser the water/hydrogen posts first. I'm asking that because in my opinion, those questions are the easiest and fastest to answer. Since Peg seems to lack some basic knowledge of physics, it would be easier to explain that to avoid further misunderstandings and wastes of time.
After all, if we can't agree about highschool level physics, we won't get very far in the debate I think.
Edited by Son, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Percy, posted 05-08-2009 8:37 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Percy, posted 05-08-2009 10:16 AM Son has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 99 of 144 (507824)
05-08-2009 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Taz
05-08-2009 2:24 AM


Re: Up, Up, and Away
Taz writes:
If such a vapour canopy really existed, it would have crushed everything on Earth.
I think an exception to this would be if the vapor canopy were not actually resting upon the underlying layers. This would be the case if the vapor canopy were at orbital velocity (ridiculous, I know, but difficult to explain why to someone at Peg's level of understanding).
I think the weight of a vapor canopy that was at very high altitude because of its temperature would still rest on the underlying layers and thus still produce a crushing weight on life at the earth's surface.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Taz, posted 05-08-2009 2:24 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Taz, posted 05-08-2009 11:57 AM Percy has not replied
 Message 108 by Peg, posted 05-09-2009 5:05 AM Percy has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 100 of 144 (507826)
05-08-2009 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Son
05-08-2009 9:24 AM


Re: bump for creationist contribution
Son writes:
I wondered if we could agree to ask Peg to anwser the water/hydrogen posts first.
I have no objection, except to note that it's the wrong question. It might give Peg the impression that only things we can prove impossible must be excluded from consideration, and that if we can't prove a vapor canopy impossible that therefore it must be what happened. In reality science can only consider phenomena for which we have evidence.
The advantage of answering questions like the water/hydrogen issue is that Peg will (hopefully) learn something about the availability of free hydrogen. Undoubtedly she has never heard of the speculations about a hydrogen economy where cars would be powered by hydrogen instead of petrol (or do they say gasoline in Australia?). Clearly if you can power a car with hydrogen then its combustion with oxygen must produce a great deal of energy, as people have been trying to make clear to Peg with examples like the Hindenberg (about which Peg again apparently knows nothing). Most doubts about the possibility of a hydrogen economy stem from the great amounts of energy needed just to create free hydrogen, and Peg doesn't understand this yet, and so doesn't understand that countries like Saudi Arabia cannot solve their water problems by simply making water from free hydrogen and oxygen.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Son, posted 05-08-2009 9:24 AM Son has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Peg, posted 05-09-2009 5:02 AM Percy has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 101 of 144 (507831)
05-08-2009 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Huntard
05-08-2009 3:54 AM


Re: Up, Up, and Away
Huntard writes:
Let me get this straight.
You take the fact that the entire Earth is only covered by about three quarters in water, and see that as evidence that it can be covered completely?
Am I the only one not seeing the logic here?
Actually, I kinda understand why Peg would get this idea. Say you went to sleep one night and woke up the next morning discovering your backyard had turned into a pond over night. You'd conclude that it must have rained last night and that at some point the same water that was in the backyard pond was rushing through your front yard (which was a little higher) down to the back yard. So, technically, at one point your whole yard was flooded before the water settled to the back yard.
Haha, argue against that!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Huntard, posted 05-08-2009 3:54 AM Huntard has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 102 of 144 (507833)
05-08-2009 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Percy
05-08-2009 9:36 AM


Re: Up, Up, and Away
Percy writes:
I think an exception to this would be if the vapor canopy were not actually resting upon the underlying layers. This would be the case if the vapor canopy were at orbital velocity...
The energy release would have been unimaginably higher than if the vapour canopy was resting on the atmosphere when it came pouring down on those poor souls.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Percy, posted 05-08-2009 9:36 AM Percy has not replied

  
Peepul
Member (Idle past 5018 days)
Posts: 206
Joined: 03-13-2009


Message 103 of 144 (507838)
05-08-2009 12:13 PM


This thread is deeply frustrating - speculation is being piled on speculation. Likewise we are discussing Peg's completely barmy ideas around hydrogen and oxygen, and 70% coverage of the earth's surface by water indicating that the whole earth was flooded at some point.
Let's stop.
Does anybody have any evidence for a vapour canopy?
Does anybody have any EVIDENCE for a vapour canopy?
No, thought not....

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Coyote, posted 05-08-2009 8:50 PM Peepul has not replied

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4716 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 104 of 144 (507850)
05-08-2009 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Peg
05-08-2009 2:15 AM


Re: Up, Up, and Away
instead i accept that it happened because God has the power to do it.
Again, Peg, no you don't. You're trying to explain the suspension of 6108 cubic miles of water above the surface of the Earth in some rational way, not as one of God's miracles. This calls into question the intelligence of every science minded person on Earth.
Try this:
"Hi everyone. My name is Peg, and I believe that God used a miracle to flooded the world with 6108 cubic miles of water within the last five thousand years and left no evidence of it save His mentioning it in the Bible."
Then kick back and see if anyone argues with you. I'm sure some not overly thoughtful person will, but merely point out that that is your belief and you've won the argument.
YEAH! PEG WINS.
Edited by lyx2no, : Formating.
Edited by lyx2no, : of water

Genesis 2
17 But of the ponderosa pine, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou shinniest thereof thou shalt sorely learn of thy nakedness.
18 And we all live happily ever after.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Peg, posted 05-08-2009 2:15 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Peg, posted 05-09-2009 5:10 AM lyx2no has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 105 of 144 (507898)
05-08-2009 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Peg
05-08-2009 12:30 AM


Re: bump for creationist contribution
Hi Peg,
Sorry to reply twice to the same post, but I somehow missed this the first time around:
Peg writes:
The water must have come from somewhere. Oxygen and Hydrogen dont just mix together to become water...it takes vasts amounts of energy to create water...so much energy that scientists cannot produce enough energy to create water from the two gasses according to my husband who happens to be one of you evc science ppl.
First, you've probably misunderstood your husband. He probably didn't say it takes vast amounts of energy to create water. Either he said it takes vast amounts of energy to separate water into hydrogen and oxygen, or that combining hydrogen and oxygen into water with a tiny spark produces vast amounts of energy.
Second, when you say that your husband is one of "you evc science ppl", do you mean he's familiar with science, or is he actually a participating member here? If the latter, who is he, pray tell? Whatever on earth do you two find to talk about? I'm nominating him for sainthood for his ability to resist strangling you!
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Peg, posted 05-08-2009 12:30 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Peg, posted 05-09-2009 6:02 AM Percy has not replied

  
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