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Author Topic:   Hovind's solitary considerations
nator
Member (Idle past 2200 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 61 of 87 (418884)
08-30-2007 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Buzsaw
08-30-2007 9:52 PM


Jihad isn't murder.
It is justifiable killing ordered by God.
You know, like the Crusades.

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 Message 60 by Buzsaw, posted 08-30-2007 9:52 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3992
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.5


Message 62 of 87 (418888)
08-30-2007 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Buzsaw
08-30-2007 9:52 PM


So a husband's Biblical authority only extends to not rendering unto Caesar?
Surely enforcing any and all Biblical injunctions would fall under the husband's authority.
And what do you mean by apples and oranges? We are comparing two criminal acts, are we not? Tax evasion is a kind of theft, isn't it? Like shoplifting, it means the rest of us pay more.
You seem to be in denial about the criminality of Hovind's actions.
As you know, ignorance of the law is no excuse for transgressions. Secular and sacred law agree on that point.

Real things always push back.
-William James
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22508
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 63 of 87 (418933)
08-31-2007 8:13 AM


Some people seemed to have turned the Christian advice to "forgive others their trespasses" into "Christians commit no trespasses."
Hovind is serving a sentence only for violations of federal law, but here is a list of Hovind's transgressions against governments at the federal, state and local level. I don't guarantee this is complete, some might be able to add to it:
  1. Failure to pay income tax, ever.
  2. Avoidance of banking regulations for purposes of avoiding the federal income tax.
  3. Failure to withhold income taxes for his employees.
  4. Failure to pay social security taxes for his employees.
  5. Failure to pay unemployment insurance for his employees.
  6. Failure to submit plans for approval or obtain construction permits for Dinoland.
I'd like to encourage people to take discussion about whether any of the above are actually crimes to other threads. I think discussions of the crimes themselves here are fine.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 64 of 87 (418946)
08-31-2007 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Percy
08-31-2007 8:13 AM


Federal and State
Just a small nit.
Item six was not a Federal offense but rather State or Local offense.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by nator, posted 08-31-2007 10:00 AM jar has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2200 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 65 of 87 (418952)
08-31-2007 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by jar
08-31-2007 9:38 AM


Re: Federal and State
quote:
Item six was not a Federal offense but rather State or Local offense.
Percy know this, which is why he prefaced his list with:
but here is a list of Hovind's transgressions against governments at the federal, state and local level.

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 Message 64 by jar, posted 08-31-2007 9:38 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by jar, posted 08-31-2007 10:03 AM nator has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 66 of 87 (418953)
08-31-2007 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by nator
08-31-2007 10:00 AM


Re: Federal and State
You are right. I did not see that. Mea Culpa.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2200 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 67 of 87 (419094)
08-31-2007 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by jar
08-31-2007 10:03 AM


Re: Federal and State
It's cool.

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 643 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 68 of 87 (419135)
09-01-2007 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Ihategod
08-27-2007 10:58 PM


Re: .......
The law he broke was tax evasion on an extremely high level.. to the order of hundreds of thousands of dollars.

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 Message 43 by Ihategod, posted 08-27-2007 10:58 PM Ihategod has not replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 69 of 87 (419177)
09-01-2007 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by ramoss
09-01-2007 9:42 AM


Re: .......
And what is worse, particularly for someone claiming to be a Christian, failing to pay the employees Unemployment Insurance and Social Security. That will be a continuing curse that he has laid on everyone who ever worked for him.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22508
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 70 of 87 (422531)
09-17-2007 4:29 PM


Concerns about Lost Videos and Such
Hovind's website, Creation Science Evangelism ( Dinosaur Adventure Land ), also has a blog, http://www.cseblogs.com, where Paul Abramson, I assume a close friend or associate of the Hovinds, keeps people up to date about Dr. Hovind. I've been posting a note here whenever anything significant is posted at the blog.
The most recent entry, YouTube, GodTube and More!, elicited responses about CSE's recent success in getting YouTube to take down a number of anti-Hovind videos based upon copyright claims. This has already been noted at another thread here (More Shenanigans from the Hovind Camp).
In the comments under this blog entry the Hovind jailhouse tapes are mentioned. There was some concern that these tapes had been obtained illegally, and it was pointed out by someone that they were played in court and had become part of the public record, and that they were available at the Pensacola News Journal website. Desiring to make clear that this wasn't an empty claim, I dug out the old link I'd posted to those tapes at the PNJ site and discovered that they are no longer there (http://www.pensacolanewsjournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article - as you can see, the page is empty).
This is sort of off-topic here, but it reenergizes me to make EvC Forum available as an archive for all material related to the creation/evolution debate, because the material tends to be volatile. Either a site is taken down, or the site changes domain names, or the site reorganizes and so the link no longer works, or the site runs out of disk space and starts deleting things.
Examples of such archived material would certainly include all Hovind related material, including not only his videos, but also the jailhouse tapes and the edited versions of his videos that include inserted rebuttals. If a copy of the court transcript ever becomes available, it would include that, too.
Ultimately I will write software to make it easy to upload material to the server and present it neatly and well organized on webpages, but in the meantime I need a qualified volunteer to begin gathering the material. Those interested should send email to Percy.
--Percy

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22508
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 71 of 87 (422534)
09-17-2007 4:37 PM


Dinosaur Adventure Land is Still Open
Most of you probably remember that Dino Land was forfeited as partial payment for back taxes when Hovind lost his court case to the IRS, but apparently the forfeiture hasn't taken place yet:
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by jar, posted 09-17-2007 5:04 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 72 of 87 (422541)
09-17-2007 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Percy
09-17-2007 4:37 PM


Re: Dinosaur Adventure Land is Still Open
They likely need the call ahead so they can sneak folk in under the radar. LOL

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22508
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 73 of 87 (423406)
09-21-2007 8:59 PM


Great Comment at the Hovind Blog
This is a copy of the message posted by DQ at the most recent Hovind blog, http://www.cseblogs.com/?p=86. It's a good one:
Istvan:
You had requested that I write a paragraph about what my problem with christianity is. That is not so easy, because to do that, we would have to agree on what christianity is. Just here on this blog, there are diametrically opposed views of what christianity is. On one side, some of the women here contend that christianity is about loving your neighbor and spreading Christ’s love to others. On the flip side of that, campusminister and EndTimes and others contend that christianity is about hate and bigotry and judgment. These are completely opposite views of what christianity is. And that’s just here on this blog. There are thousands and thousands of different ideas about what christianity is. So which definition would you like me to write my paragraph on?
If you want me to write a paragraph about my problems with Jersey Girl’s version of christianity, I will have nothing to write. I have no problem with it. It seems nice, and I’m glad that she’s found something that works for her and makes her feel good. I don’t happen to need that kind of affirmation, and I think she’s misinformed, but if it makes her feel better and doesn’t hurt anyone else then it’s a good thing.
CampusMinister, on the other hand, is a dangerous man. He is a fundamentalist, and fundamentalism is an extremely dangerous thing. There are different kinds of fundamentalism: religious fundamentalism, political fundamentalism, etc . but they all share the same attribute. They divide everybody into two groups: 1) those who agree with me; and 2) those who are evil. There is no gray area. There is no provision for people who just disagree with them but are good people anyway; no, they are evil because they disagree. These types of discussions often spiral downward into an argument about who is worse: various oppressive atheist regimes or various oppressive religious regimes. You can find many examples throughout history of evil christian regimes, evil Muslim regimes, evil Buddhist regimes, evil atheist regimes, etc . What all of these oppressive regimes have in common, though, is fundamentalism. The Taliban are religious fundamentalists. Richard the Lionheart was a religious fundamentalist. Stalin was a political fundamentalist. The real enemy is not the religion or lack thereof, the real enemy is fundamentalism. It takes everyone who disagrees with you (religiously or politically) and labels them, not merely as people who disagree, but as “evil.” And it is pretty easy to convince people to go along with doing horrible things to evil people. It is pretty easy to convince people to fly planes into buildings once you have convinced them that everyone in those buildings is evil.
I will give you an example from this blog of what I mean. EndTimes, in the previous thread, equated me with the Nazis (and the Russian KGB). Yes, that’s right, because I disagreed with him on a blog, I am in the same category as two of the most ruthless, evil regimes in the history of the world. You see what I mean? Two groups of people: those who agree with him and those who are evil. I disagree with him, therefore I am evil, just like the Nazis. He makes no distinction between me, who disagreed with him on a blog, and the Nazis, who killed millions of innocent people. Now ask yourself this: if I’m as bad as the Nazis, isn’t it OK to kill me, or take away all my rights, or treat me as less than a person? I can see how that would be a very easy step for him to take. He has deluded himself into believing that I am evil. When I was in college I used to listen to a couple of psychos who preached on our campus. I would not be at all surprised if our friend campusminister was one of them. One time I heard him preach that all homosexuals should be rounded up and put in prison. They should be given 30 days to “repent,” and if they refused to repent they should be executed. (He also preached about how he beat his wife- according to him it was OK because he always hit her with his bible to “knock the word into her.”) People like campusminister are trying to turn our government into the christian version of the Taliban. I have no doubt that, if people like campusminister were able to gain control, it would not be long after all the gays were executed that they would be coming after me, to give me 30 days to repent. Because I’m just as bad as the Nazis, remember? Granted, it is a very remote possibility. It is very hard to imagine something like that happening. But the Nazis did not get to where they ended up overnight. It took years and years of gradual indoctrination. If they had taken power in 1932 and immediately said “let’s round up the Jews and exterminate them!” the population would not have gone along with it. It started more subtly, more slowly. Certain rights were taken away, for “security” reasons. Then, once people got used to that, more and more rights were being taken away, step by step. When they started loading up the trains, that was only a very small step farther than the general population was already used to, so it wasn’t a big deal. Now, people like EndTimes and campusminister and Eric Hovind are doing the same thing. They are starting small, trying to take away the first amendment rights of people who disagree with them by filing bogus DCMA claims. They are also trying to deny basic rights to homosexuals, which is a preliminary step in their efforts to dehumanize them. Because once they get people convinced that the gays are not real people, it will be that much easier to take away even more rights.
I know that the prospect of people like campusminister and Endtimes gaining power are extremely remote. The pendulum of American politics swings from left to right regularly, and already seems to be swinging back towards the center. But that does not mean I should be complacent. There is not a doubt in my mind that EndTimes or campusminister would execute me in a heartbeat if they got the chance, or send me to a concentration camp to protect the country from my toxic atheist ideas. Of course, they wouldn’t call it a concentration camp, they would call it a “Love of Christ Re-education Camp” and they would tell me that they loved me, (they just hated my sin,) right up to the time they turned on the showers.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-22-2007 3:04 AM Percy has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 74 of 87 (423438)
09-22-2007 3:04 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Percy
09-21-2007 8:59 PM


Pot, Kettle
And yet he does end up doing just what he's complaining about and comparing his opponents to Nazis. And why does he compare them to Nazis? Because by comparing him to a Nazi they've shown that they'd be willing to round up people like him and gas them ...
Sheesh.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Percy, posted 09-21-2007 8:59 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22508
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 75 of 87 (423450)
09-22-2007 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Dr Adequate
09-22-2007 3:04 AM


Re: Pot, Kettle
There's a built-in irony to the Hitler analogy. Obviously it isn't always wrong, but until events overtake accusations the fault can be said to lie with the accuser, for finding evil where none has been demonstrated to exist, rather than with the accused.
But DQ's response isn't ironic. There's a world of difference between being the first to raise the Hitler analogy, versus noting that raising the Hitler analogy is what's truly Hitlerian. Calling attention to the fact that the demonization of enemies (as the first step to dehumanizing them) is the same approach Hitler actually used seems wholly appropriate. I can understand not liking his closing analogy comparing Hitler's final solution with the fundamentalist final solution (probably making the US a Christian nation/state), but ever read The Handmaid's Tale? What's scary about the book is that, given religious history around the world, it didn't seem far fetched. And a significant portion of early American history is about groups that came to America to avoid religious persecution so that they could practice their own peculiar form of it, and tragic events like Salem come to mind.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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