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Author Topic:   Scientists find brain evolution gene
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 16 of 28 (340961)
08-17-2006 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by jar
08-17-2006 8:26 PM


Re: Doesn't this sound like design?
jar writes:
It,(the universe) is not perfectly suited to us, rather we are suited to it.
GDR writes:
Says who? It is one or the other but it can't be proven either way. It is just opinion based on whatever we want to base it on.
jar writes:
Well, no, I would not say it is opinion at all. The Universe was around long before there were any humans, and will be around long after any humans are but dust.
I can't see where your last statement is pertinent. It seems more likely that God would prepare a place for us and the rest of his creation in advance of our arrival. If we assume that God designed the evolutionary process then it would also follow that it was going to take time for us to evolve to the point we are at now.It works either way.
GDR writes:
As Theists we have to conclude that the Hand of God was involved somewhere. Why not conclude that it is here in this instance? If not here, then where would you bring it in?
jar writes:
Why?
Why conclude it is here? What is different here? Other than the rapidity of the change what is different? And if GOD is going to step in and intervene, why do it in a way that will take millions of years to resolve?
What are millions of years in time to a God that is outside of time? Once again, I truly would be interested in your opinion of where and how often God has and is intervening in His creation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by jar, posted 08-17-2006 8:26 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 08-17-2006 11:12 PM GDR has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 17 of 28 (340966)
08-17-2006 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by GDR
08-17-2006 10:57 PM


Re: Doesn't this sound like design?
It seems more likely that God would prepare a place for us and the rest of his creation in advance of our arrival.
That seems to me to hold several hidden assumptions. First is that humans are some desired end product, something special. I simply see no reason to think that is the case. Second, that makes God a very, very cruel critter.
If we assume that God designed the evolutionary process then it would also follow that it was going to take time for us to evolve to the point we are at now. It works either way.
The hidden premise is still there and it gets worse. Now the 99.many9s% of critters that came before us are simply stepping stones to you? To me? Nothing but mulch for the garden.
I find that presumptious and to run counter to all that we know. First off, if the past is any indicator, life will continue. Even humans will evolve. And we are not some end point, in fact not even a high point in the life that preceeded us and share this earth with us. Many other criiters have been far more successful, have been around longer and will likely be around long after we are gone.
Once again, I truly would be interested in your opinion of where and how often God has and is intervening in His creation.
Well, if we ever have a thread where that seems pertinent maybe we will get into it. This thread though is pretty narrow, and in the item under discussion I see no need or justification for bringing in some outside guiding hand.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by GDR, posted 08-17-2006 10:57 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by GDR, posted 08-17-2006 11:22 PM jar has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 18 of 28 (340967)
08-17-2006 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by jar
08-17-2006 11:12 PM


Re: Doesn't this sound like design?
jar writes:
That seems to me to hold several hidden assumptions. First is that humans are some desired end product, something special. I simply see no reason to think that is the case. Second, that makes God a very, very cruel critter.
I don't see anything cruel. Just because one species succeeds another doesn't make it cruel. Every individual life comes to an end. I tend to think that the end product are beings with consciousness. There may in the future be beings with a more advanced consciousness than ours. I don't know, but right now it seems to be us.
As Christians we believe that God came and lived among us as one of us. He didn't come as a Collie. It seems to me that makes us at least a little bit special.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 08-17-2006 11:12 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Omnivorous, posted 08-17-2006 11:40 PM GDR has replied
 Message 20 by jar, posted 08-17-2006 11:58 PM GDR has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 19 of 28 (340968)
08-17-2006 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by GDR
08-17-2006 11:22 PM


Re: Doesn't this sound like design?
As Christians we believe that God came and lived among us as one of us. He didn't come as a Collie. It seems to me that makes us at least a little bit special.
Accepting for the moment your Christian premise...
Who knows how many times and in what forms God may have come incarnate into this world?
It's not like we could demand notice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by GDR, posted 08-17-2006 11:22 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by GDR, posted 08-18-2006 12:07 AM Omnivorous has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 20 of 28 (340970)
08-17-2006 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by GDR
08-17-2006 11:22 PM


Re: Doesn't this sound like design?
As Christians we believe that God came and lived among us as one of us. He didn't come as a Collie. It seems to me that makes us at least a little bit special.
Yes.....and no.
We believe that Jesus came and walked with us as a human. What we don't know is whether GOD did the same for canines. I've always wondered about Akela.
Again, that is a human centric view. I believe GOD speaks to His critters in a way they can understand. GOD reaching out to us does not mean GOD has not and does not reach out to all critters.
But again, that still has little to do with this news item. There is nothing that I can see in there that requires outside intervention.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by GDR, posted 08-17-2006 11:22 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by GDR, posted 08-18-2006 12:17 AM jar has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 21 of 28 (340971)
08-18-2006 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Omnivorous
08-17-2006 11:40 PM


Re: Doesn't this sound like design?
Omnivorous writes:
Who knows how many times and in what forms God may have come incarnate into this world?
It's not like we could demand notice.
Good point and I have to say I don't know. I'm not a literalist but in the OT there are several stories such as Adam talking to God in the Garden of Eden. It really is a very interesting question. The Bible talks about angels. Maybe the guy sitting next to you at Starbucks is one. Frankly I'm from Missouri on that but I wouldn't say that I completely dismiss the idea either.
I have to admit when it comes to question of science or theology I'm a lot better with questions than I am with answers. (Mind you I don't let lack of knowledge get in the way of expressing an opinion. )

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Omnivorous, posted 08-17-2006 11:40 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 22 of 28 (340973)
08-18-2006 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by jar
08-17-2006 11:58 PM


Re: Doesn't this sound like design?
jar writes:
Again, that is a human centric view. I believe GOD speaks to His critters in a way they can understand. GOD reaching out to us does not mean GOD has not and does not reach out to all critters.
I don't know one way or the other but I know I sure have trouble communicating with little four legged friend. I do believe that consciousness is eternal. I also believe that many animals have consciousness of a lower form than our own and that is likely eternal as well.
How's that for being off topic. Sorry Percy but jar just has a way of doing that to people.
jar writes:
But again, that still has little to do with this news item. There is nothing that I can see in there that requires outside intervention.
I'm not saying that it requires outside intervention. I'm just saying that the circumstances are such that metaphysical intervention would be one of the possible (although not scientific),conclusions for why it evolved the way it did.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by jar, posted 08-17-2006 11:58 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 08-18-2006 12:23 AM GDR has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 23 of 28 (340974)
08-18-2006 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by GDR
08-18-2006 12:17 AM


Re: Doesn't this sound like design?
I'm not saying that it requires outside intervention. I'm just saying that the circumstances are such that metaphysical intervention would be one of the possible (although not scientific),conclusions for why it evolved the way it did.
Why not then use metaphysical intervention in other cases? Why chose this one instead of others?
Is it possible that the reason is simply that it makes us something special? Is there something unique about this report? So far I have not seen that beyond the facts that it involves humans, involves what we consider to be a significant difference and might be a reason for the theists among us to say, "See we are special."

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by GDR, posted 08-18-2006 12:17 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by GDR, posted 08-18-2006 12:35 AM jar has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 24 of 28 (340975)
08-18-2006 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by jar
08-18-2006 12:23 AM


Re: Doesn't this sound like design?
jar writes:
Why not then use metaphysical intervention in other cases? Why chose this one instead of others?
Is it possible that the reason is simply that it makes us something special? Is there something unique about this report? So far I have not seen that beyond the facts that it involves humans, involves what we consider to be a significant difference and might be a reason for the theists among us to say, "See we are special."
To be honest I see God in all of creation. I would agree that the physical universe is primarily designed to function naturally without intervention, but I also do believe that God does sometimes intervene. Why and when He intervenes is a complete mystery to me.
Why are you so concerned that we not see ourselves as special? I think that even Atheists would tend to think that we are more highly evolved than any other Earthly species.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 08-18-2006 12:23 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by NosyNed, posted 08-18-2006 1:39 AM GDR has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 25 of 28 (340979)
08-18-2006 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by GDR
08-18-2006 12:35 AM


More Highly Evolved --- humans?
Why are you so concerned that we not see ourselves as special? I think that even Atheists would tend to think that we are more highly evolved than any other Earthly species.
We have evolved some particular characteristics to a greater degree than other species. We have some characteristics that are much less "well developed" than other species. Since I can think of no way of measureing the degree of "evolvedness" other than the time that it has been going on I'd say that all things are equally "evolved" (whatever it means).
All things are on the tip of their particular branch. How can you pick which branch is the "highest" one?
I think we should see ourselves as special in that we are aware of ourselves and the world around us. Somehow it would be diminished if no one were here to appreciate it but that is silly really.
I think we should NOT think of ourselves as special in anyway that makes us think we are separate or more important. That thinking will lead to our doom.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by GDR, posted 08-18-2006 12:35 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by GDR, posted 08-18-2006 2:05 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 26 of 28 (340981)
08-18-2006 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by NosyNed
08-18-2006 1:39 AM


Re: More Highly Evolved --- humans?
NosyNed writes:
I think we should see ourselves as special in that we are aware of ourselves and the world around us. Somehow it would be diminished if no one were here to appreciate it but that is silly really.
Let's just say that it is human consciousness that makes us unique. I'm not sure what special means in this context anyway.
We are certainly different than other species. For instance what other animal is concerned with the fact that another species might become extinct.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by NosyNed, posted 08-18-2006 1:39 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 27 of 28 (340984)
08-18-2006 2:33 AM


Why would a large brain be so important?
Large brains might be selected for because of the advantages to being able to keep larger social groups (the larger the group the easier the mating and the better the fighting force). As many evcers are aware, in primates brain size and social group size have an interesting correlation.
What I find more interesting than HAR1 is ASPM (something a little more scientific can be found here) which may be evolving even now. I would be interested to learn when any studies about how this mutation effects social sizes or other cognitive functions.

  
U can call me Cookie
Member (Idle past 4953 days)
Posts: 228
From: jo'burg, RSA
Joined: 11-15-2005


Message 28 of 28 (340997)
08-18-2006 5:13 AM


The horses have bolted
what really stands out for me is the sudden appearance of rapid mutation.
That there are only two mutational differences between a chicken and a chimp, shows how evolutionarily stable this HAR1 has been; its highly conserved....implies that it had an important function, and changes were detrimental.
The finding of 18 changes between humans and chimps is gobsmacking! and its understandable that GDR would want to take the GOD route here.
While this is still evolution, its unusual nonetheless.
How does a highly conserved region suddenly start sprouting stable mutations left right and centre?
My guess is, one of the first few mutations resulted in a more stable protein, allowng more room for change.
Coupled with a greater selective advantage, this could possibly lead to present day situation.
What's yours?
PS. Is there a primary paper? anyone have it?

"The good Christian should beware the mathematician and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of hell." - St. Augustine

  
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