Question about this so called World Wide Flood.

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Originally posted by LudvanB:
It concerns life AFTER the alledged flood. 6 months of ocean water covering the entire earth would have killed all land vegetation and made it virtually impossible for anything to start growing right away.

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Of course this very reasonable conclusion is contradicted by the Bible in its account of the flood. There was at least one fig tree growing even BEFORE the water completely subsided as Noah's little birdie went out and plucked a branch.As for TrueCreation: I do wish you'd inform me of the Effects of the Flood, especially explaining how exactly plants could survive several months of submersion. Maybe I'm thinking wrong here but I have grass that won't survive three days under a sheet of plywood. Try sticking a fig tree in water for a few months, then get back to me. I doubt even mature seeds would remain viable.------------------
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Originally posted by LudvanB:
It concerns life AFTER the alledged flood. 6 months of ocean water covering the entire earth would have killed all land vegetation and made it virtually impossible for anything to start growing right away.

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Of course this very reasonable conclusion is contradicted by the Bible in its account of the flood. There was at least one fig tree growing even BEFORE the water completely subsided as Noah's little birdie went out and plucked a branch.As for TrueCreation: I do wish you'd inform me of the Effects of the Flood, especially explaining how exactly plants could survive several months of submersion. Maybe I'm thinking wrong here but I have grass that won't survive three days under a sheet of plywood. Try sticking a fig tree in water for a few months, then get back to me. I doubt even mature seeds would remain viable.------------------
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Originally posted by TrueCreation:
"Of course this very reasonable conclusion is contradicted by the Bible in its account of the flood. There was at least one fig tree growing even BEFORE the water completely subsided as Noah's little birdie went out and plucked a branch. "
--Why wouldn't there be?

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Time. There isn't enough of it in the account.

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The ark ran aground on top of a mountain. Gen. 8:4

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A couple of weeks later the tops of mountains are seen. Gen 8:5

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Five weeks or so after that Noah sends out some birds. Nothing this time. Gen. 8:6-7

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A couple of weeks later, more birds. Bingo. This one has an olive branch. Gen 8:10-11

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This leaves about seven weeks for the water to finish subsiding and for plants to sprout.

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Let's assume that this said olive tree is growing on top of Mt Ararat as this is the first place we know is dry. Now, the mountain has been underwater for weeks on end. The ground will take some time to dry before you get a good shot at germination. Soil which is too wet will kill the seeds-- mildew, rot that sort of thing. This I know from experience. I've killed many such seeds.

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So we need to subtract a week or two, though honestly with of flood of this magnitude I think this is not nearly enough time.

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Now with five weeks to spare we set about the germination process. This in itself is tricky as olives don't germinate from seed very readily.

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Growing an olive from fresh olives is usually a frustrating experience as very few germinate but a tree dropping thousands of olives over hundreds of years will often produce some seedlings.

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http://www.oliveoilsource.com/propagating_olive_trees.htmAssuming one is to germinate you need most of the remaining time alloted for germination, and this in a carefully controlled medium.

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Seeds should be planted in large community pots in a well drained mixture of vermiculite, peat and loam, and allowed 25 to 35 days for germination.

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http://www.bonsai-bci.com/species/bucida.htmlSo now we have one to two weeks for this thing to grow large enough to branch, so that the bird can pluck a branch and take it to Noah. And olives don't grow fast enough.

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--Good question, and the Good answer is they didn't survive. Seeds however did. And I do believe that while you may have good debate on their seed's survivability for later growth, your comment is subjective. Do you have reason for them unable to survive 40 - 365 days afloat in water?

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Actually, I do have reason to believe that seeds wouldn't survive 40 to 365 days afloat. For one, with few exceptions, living seeds don't float. And seeds as dense as an olive's certainly wouldn't. Dead seeds do tend to float. You can use this effect to weed out the dead ones before planting. (This suggests to me that the olives would be at the bottoms of the mountain not at the tops as per the assumptions I made earlier. But for the sake of argument...) Even so, the real issue is whether they would survive in water, floating or otherwise.Put a seed in water and it will absorb water and pop. Or it will start to rot. I've done this. It is an easy phenomena to observe. Try it. I can't find any research on the topic however. Grains are especially vulnerable to this effect-- a fact that is more damning to creationism than the olive we are discussing. No grain, no staple food source for most of the plant-eaters on the ark; as stated in the original post by ludvanB (though grain was not mention by name).take care
John------------------
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Correct me if I’m wrong, folks:
--Natural barges/rafts float and carry vegetation, viable branches, spores, seeds, etc., especially following deluges.

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Sure. This would get you around some of the difficulties I pointed out. It also lessens the extent of God's destruction, as anything that could swim would cling to these things-- turtles, birds, snakes, insects, etc.-- exactly as they do in you examples. It seems that you postulate yourself into a corner.

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Gen 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained [alive], and they that [were] with him in the ark.

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Note that last line: only Noah and those with him survived. Of course the whole "surviving olive branch seed" hypothesis is equally invalidating of this total destruction.

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--I’ve seen tree branches spring to life after being cut off by the roots (several months). You may have to.

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Actually, I haven't. I've tried; and failed over a hundred times with roses and a few other plants, though some people can manage such things. I question your comment that it is possible months after being cut though.

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--Don’t olive trees have a tendency (more than other trees) to resist destruction by the elements? They live very long

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They are long lived, but this has little to do with their survival under water for months on end.

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--Incidentally: Grains are especially vulnerable to this effect-- a fact that is more damning to evolutionism than the olive we are discussing. Which grains don’t require a ‘care-taker’ before they become extinct (let alone evolve).

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Don't confuse cultivated grains with grains in general. As hard as it may be to comprehend, there are wild varieties of wheat, rice, corn and pretty much anything else we cultivate. No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.spelt.com/origins.html[/URL] for one example.It seems that your argument runs something like this:1)grains require human care to survive and reproduce
2)grains would have to survive unassisted for millions of years
3)because of point #1 this is impossible
4)therefore we shouldn't expect to see grains if ToE is correct
5)We see grains
6)Hence, ToE is destroyed.This is just silly, given the fact that premise #1 is patently wrong.Feel free to correct the argument.

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--IOW, somebody stop me: it’s a young earth after all!

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Don't give yourself so much credit. This was too easy. Grains are just grass that we happen to eat. Grass is quite capable of surviving without us. Go outside and dig around in your yard until you find the little seed pods. Looks a lot like wheat or corn, yes? though the kernels are very small.------------------
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by TrueCreation:
--G-whiz, ll that analysis for nothing, it was an olive leaf, rather than a branch. Which was made clear as it also was newly sprouted. I would be careful of this type of misrepresentation. Many would accuse you of being deceitful or would stamp you as a liar.
Get over yourself.Ok... olive leaf. I looked it up even before you replied. My Vacation Bible School Training failed me. In other words, I have been saturated in Christianity since before I could walk and I couldn't count the times I've heard this referred to as an olive branch. Oh my god!!!! gee-whiz!!!! a quick search on Google returns quite a few references to an olive branch, including quotations from various Bibles. http://www.clues.abdn.ac.uk:8080/besttest/alt/translat/trans26v.htmlhttp://www.moshiach.com/action/morality/prayer.aspIf I were you, I'd be careful when I start pitching words like "liar" and "deceitful" Someone might think that you are trying to escalate this civilized discussion into a fist fight.Now. Best I can tell is that "leaf" is the correct translation. Big deal. You still don't have time. Olive seeds do not germinate readily. Hundreds of years and thousands of seeds = a few sprouts. (Or did you not bother with that link?) Olives live a very long time so they aren't in a big hurry. And two weeks isn't long enough. Methinks you haven't tried to grow many trees from seed.

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--A vast majority of seeds will survive in water

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OK. Where is the research? I can't find any, which is why I explained my point in terms of my own experiences with plants and seeds.

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those which are unable, or no where on earth have been sustained with the proper conditions anywhere on earth, will die and go extinct.

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Sounds like evolution, but what is the point? Are you arguing that the plants which couldn't survive immersion didn't survive the flood? If so, it should not be so easy to kill seeds by drowning them. Extant seeds should pretty much all be water tolerant up to a couple of months or so, and they're not.

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If you wish to play with probabilities, the numbers are going to be very high. So it isn't going to work well when the information may say that 'it is likely or, most of the time' seeds of different species are no longer able to germinate when deposited after this type of saturation.

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What information? What numbers? Are you arguing that there will be so many seeds afloat that even with most of them dying due to saturation the few that survive would be sufficiently numerous for kick starting the ecosystem? Maybe, even probably, but not quickly enough to feed everything on the ark.

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--Thank you for that extra rhetoric on your dislike of creationism. By the way, this must mean it isn't very damning then.

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You're welcome. Happy to entertain and enlighten. Not damning? I could overlook the whole olive thing as symbolic actually. The real immediate problem is with the survival of staple foods, and with the observed diversity of plants today. After six thousand years we should still see a remarkable water resistance in virtually every plant's seed, and we don't. That is, there are a lot of plants alive today which should have been killed off by a global flood due to the effects of water on their seeds.

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--Also, your vagueness must imply that I can just shove any seed in the water and it will pop and/or rot. Maybe I should pick one which is known to survive for hundreds or thousands of years after it falls from the tree to the point of germination.

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Vague? You've got to be kidding me? I flat out told you to plop a seed in water for a month and see what happens. I don't care which seed you try, but I'd suggest you use an olive since that is the subject of the debate. Also, there is a BIG difference between a seed surviving dormant in its natural habitat and a seed surviving underwater.

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Tell us when you do find this research.

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I will.

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"No grain, no staple food source for most of the plant-eaters on the ark; as stated in the original post by ludvanB (though grain was not mention by name)."
-- ? I think you need to reiterate that one, I don't understand what you are trying to get at.

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If grain doesn't survive the flood, they ain't got nothing to eat once they leave the ark. Farming, planting crops from stores kept on the ark, would take several months and there are a lot of animals to feed in the meantime.I anticipate one response: They eat food they brought with them on the ark. I have never had anyone explain to me how the ark could hold even half of the animals it would have to hold, much less hold food for all of them. This should probably be another topic though.------------------
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Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
Assuming that the flood occured, and as the bible said it did, infers that God himself was in charge of all the events therein, and if all went as we are to understand from the story, I'm sure He made some 'provisions' for his favoured crew. If he made the universe he can surely make a fig tree, or keep a couple acres 'untouched'. who knows
that would be something to debate if and when the ark is found i guess

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Would you accept this appeal to magic explaination in any other arena of your life?------------------
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Originally posted by Peter:
I don't see how the existence of a fig tree branch contradicts
the idea that all land flora would have been killed.

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There is no suggestion that the twig came from a live tree,
is there?

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I wouldn't expect all the trees to have been dissolved

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Actually, though I said branch, upon rechecking the passage says 'leaf' These would be expected to have rotted.Even so the Jewish Publication Society translation reads "an olive-leaf freshly plucked" I looked at the Hebrew and the verb used-- taw-raf'-- means something like rip, or rend. In other words, there are good indications that it is fresh.------------------
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Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
btw post #15 i think it was, was my loving wife, mock and die!

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Share the name, share the consequences.And why exactly should I not say to your wife (who is stealthily posting under your name) percisely what I would have said to you?------------------
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Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
John we went over this once are you still scared of the wicked witch of the west.

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I'm sorry, but you are making less sense than usual. How does this comment follow from ... well.... anything?------------------
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Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
Why on earth would you give an account of something to people that they could never understand.

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Why would you give them a ridiculous description? How is this better?

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That doesn't make it less accurate.

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It does when it is not only less complicated but also outright wrong. Think about it. "Mom, where do babies come from?" 1) When two people love each other sometimes a baby grows inside the mommie. 2) The stork brings it. Both are simple. One is just plain ridiculous.

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Ironic i think

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Yes, when you realize that the flood didn't happen.------------------
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Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
It is in your opinion outright wrong.

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Nope. It is in every testable way out right wrong. No evidence that ought to be there and much evidence that ought not to be there, if the flood were true.

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Unless you have attained all knowledge that is a strong statement

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No it isn't. Is my house painted a horrible red? hmmm... why yes it is! Didn't need to have attained all knowledge for that one. Same principle.

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when you have only evidence to say that based on our limited knowledge of the past i have come to the conclusion that the biblical account of the flood is wrong.

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Join one of the flood threads young skywalker. You have much to learn.

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Or am i out to lunch again?

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Well, yes.

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You do not know the flood did not happen.

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I'm afraid that I do. The evidence is overwhelmingly against there having been a recent global flood. The evidence for it is absolutely zero.------------------
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Originally posted by Coragyps:
If we really get TC back to this thread, let me note a couple of things that need to be addressed:
- All that water was seawater, or at least seawater with fresh water floating on top, undisturbed and unmixed by those big "flood surges" every few days.
- Soil irrigated for a few years with even mildly brackish water will not grow most crop plants - it accumulates too much salt.
- Coconuts, mangroves, and saltgrass will tolerate seawater, but are not mentioned in Genesis. Grapes won't tolerate seawater. How long after this flood was it that Noah got drunk?
- Think of our invertebrate friends in the sea: only a very few will survive, say, a 20% dilution of seawater with fresh. So while we're keeping the saltwater off our crops, let's keep the rainwater off our reefs.

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Hey TC,bump....------------------
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Originally posted by John:
Hey TC,

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bump....

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Tami,The translation as 'olive leaf' rather than 'branch' does appear to be the most accurate. Quite a few Bibles and many more commentaries and preachers get it wrong.------------------
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HIT ME WITH ANOTHER QUESTION!

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How about I hit you with a reference?If you jump way back to post #11 of this thread you'll find much discussion about the effects of a flood. EvC Forum: Question about this so called World Wide Flood.You may also check out this one: EvC Forum: Insect diversity falsifies the worldwide flood.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com[This message has been edited by John, 05-11-2003]