The Clergy Project

What's the alternative? Asking God who is and who isn't a true Christian?

Why does there have to be an alternative? So people can carry out polls...?I would suggest that the best way to know if another is a Christian is to become one yourself. It doesn't provide absolute proof of anyones position but you can make an reasonably good educated guess. I know Faith is a Christian for example.

Which brings us back to the question, "How can you recognize a Christian?"

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Are you asking how do I or how would anyone know. I said I don't know how anyone would know already. But I could suggest how I know if you like.Is that what you mean?

To say that there is something called Christians implies that there is some method of positively identifying one.If the method of recognition is unique to each individual, then it's pretty hard to say that Christians even exist.So the question remains, "How do you recognize a Christian?"edited to add a spaceThis message has been edited by jar, 12-01-2005 11:43 AM

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

So how do I know if I am a Christian? Do I ask God?
Do I ask my Pastor?Or do I just learn all the catch phrases and buy the Bloodweiser T-shirt? (With the fish)

A murderer becomes a murderer as soon as he murders. He remains a murderer forever. Unless there is someway to know for sure that he did it then you can look at him forever and not know he is a murderer - even though he is one. There is no particular reason to think one would ever know he is.If being a Christian is the result of an act of God which changes a persons position - with respect to how God views them - and it has nothing to do with his behaviour before or after this occurance -then there is no reason to think a person would be able to observe the fact that person is a Christian. It would seem that if one was a Christian then it would be at least possible that they could recognise another Christian - given that they understand what it is that makes a Christian. That the world at large doesn't understand what makes a Christian and therefore has no inside knowledge which would spot the subtle differences that exist between genuine Christian and false ones, then that is a problem for the world. Not the Christian.

Okay. Now we are making progress. So in your opinion, behavior means nothing. Once a Christian the murderer is still a Christian even if he continues to murder.You're suggestion that by becoming one you would recognize a Christian does not seem to work since many Christians here have questioned whether or not I am a Christian and have in fact asserted that they did recognize other individuals as Christians.So again, how would one recognize a Christian? For example, you said that you recognized Faith as a Christian. How?

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I didn't say the Christian was a murderer - I was making a parallel in order to illustrate once a murderer/Christian always a murderer/Christian. It has nothing to do with actions prior to the murder/act of God or actions post the murder/act of God. The occasion of the murder/act of God is the point at which one becomes one or the other. The parallel fails in the sense that the murder is the act of the individual - he makes himself a murderer and the act of God, God makes the ChristianBut taking what you said as an extreme example. A murderer who is a Christian is not unmade a Christian if he murders again. It should be noted however that this is only a theoretical possibility. When a person becomes a Christian they recieve the Holy Spirit and undergo a see-change. Their whole outlook changes. The tendency is that the former life is turned away from and that behaviour 'improves' But in the same way I will still smoke the occasional joint whereas before I smoked joints all the time, a murderer could in theory, slip back into murder. In order to get an inkling into the change at this level, one could examine Saul/Paul and see the extent to which his behaviour changed a persecutor of the faith, implicated in a murder - if not directly becoming a giant of the faith Whilst I may be pretty sure a person is a Christian I cannot be sure that a person is not. They are two different things. A person is a Christian because of a positional change that has been made. Their citizenship has changed from one dominion to the other. A illiterate immigrant to Ireland who has come from a repressive African regieme may not realise the inalienable rights and impossibility of irrevocation of his newly aquired Irish citizenship. He may not realise at all what that in fact means - his former experience has never even countered such things. Whether he realizes it or not he is as fully a citizen as me, one who realizes all these things.So a person may be a Christian without fully realizing it. That they carry some strange notions about what it is to be a citizen of their new country and carry on with habits they had when they were citizens of another country changes the situation not a jot.Some are fully aware of the impossibility of losing their salvation. Others are not and hold onto the notion that they must work for it. No matter In a multitude of ways. Salvation is by faith alone. Works have nothing to do with it. This is a nigh on impossible doctrine to grasp given the propensity of people to think they must do it. But even if someone could get it that doesn't mean they are a Christian. However, the automatic tendency of a person who wasn't a Christian and who grasped this doctrine would be "I can live my life as I want" (die to their sinful nature being still alive and well). Not with Faith however. Faith doesn't need Romans 6 explained to her. She knows that works and deeds are very important - but just not in the context of salvation.I also look at her deeds. Or rather the motivation behind them. It is a source of amazement that folk spend so much time here arguing so vociferously their viewpoint. Why do they do it. I imagine there are various reasons and when it comes to issues of faith I gather there are defenders of various faiths here. Heresy Hunters abound. But the motivation of Faith differs from so any others. Hers is not so much to defend here faith but to point people in the direction of that which can save them. The heart behind her actions is anguish. Sure she argues because she is argumentitive but I see the frustration in her words "Why won't they believe and he will save them". I don't get that motivation from others. They argue purely to defend their viewpoint. There is no expressed desire that the opponant come to their viewpoint in order that they be saved

How does your statement reconcile itself with the following scripture? If the world is unable to recognise a Christian, is that a problem for the world at large or is that a problem for the Christian?This message has been edited by Phat, 12-02-2005 06:15 AM

Sorry but I still do not understand what you are saying.First, bringing in salvation means nothing. There is no way to determine whether or not someone is saved, nor can salvation be observed. It is just trying to change the subject.Let me step back and try to see if we can get anywhere at all.The point of this discussion relates to those Priests who signed the petition. Several people have questioned whether or not the signators are real Christians. The rest of the hundred or so posts in this thread have been attempts to try to see if there is a way to determine if someone is a Christian.So how can you tell if someone is a Christian?In your final paragraph you get around to addressing the question. Kinda. What type deeds? What is it that can be observed? So it is not what is done but why it is done? How do you determine why something was done?

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Just to recap. I can see no way that a non-Christian can tell if a person is a Christian. They may see something about the person that is Christian behaviour but that in itself is not necessarily a sign that they are one. The things that define a Christian are not outward actions but things such as: being in Christ, having the Holy Spirit, being a person who is saved. As you correctly state, none of these things are directly obeservable thus no non Christian can be sure.A Christian has these things and it is possible that they may be certain within themselves that another person has these things too.(on the "it takes one to know one" basis) I explained some aspects of Faith that lead me to be sure she is a Christian. I'll repeat that this only works for confirming for me that she is, if she lacked these things this does not mean that she is not a Christian. There is little point in expanding on them because all I could use is words to try and explain them. And all I have to go on is her words too. That I can read her words and know she is a Christian is something that is spiritually discerned. This is only possible if one is a Christian

quote:

---

14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment: 16"For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?"[d] But we have the mind of Christ.

---

quote:

---

If the world is unable to recognise a Christian, is that a problem for the world at large or is that a problem for the Christian?
  —phat

---

It can lie in on either side. A Christian may be a weak one or a young one in which case his light is not going to illuminate very far. The weak Christian is not living up to that which he is and I'm sure there are consequences in that for himOn the other hand, the word 'may' may involve 'may not' Christ was the brightest light of the all and very many didn't see him and praise his father in heaven.Ultimately the problem is for the world. Various people stand up and hold the light up - each with whatever degree of illumination they happen to possess. Some hold candles others searchlights. If the world doesn't see it it is the world who will face the most significant consequences.

Hello guys,
excuse me for butting in, but,... I don't agree with the takes one to know one concept. For a simple example, consider psychologist and people that have a high level of what has been called emotional intelligence. These people have the ability to understand what motivate people better than most of us and do not have to be a (what-ever) in order to recognize a (what-ever).Whey should this be different with determing if a person is a christian? What is there that a christian detect in a christian that a non christian cannot?

Well what about those who profess a belief in christ such as mormons or catholics, but are discounted by many other christians because of something else they believe in such as saints or the lost tribes in america?or what about people who do things in the name of christ that are considered evil by many? are they not christian even though they believe as much as anyone, since its all about faith and not actions?or is it purely arbitratry, and unset?