Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Clergy Project
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1 of 151 (263046)
11-25-2005 8:30 AM


Page not found - University of Wisconsin Oshkosh University of Wisconsin Oshkosh
At the time of writing 10,000 Christian clergymen of many denominations have endorsed this letter which denies a literalist interpretation of the Biblical creation stories and accepts evolution as valid science.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by jar, posted 11-25-2005 12:59 PM PaulK has not replied
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 11-25-2005 10:06 PM PaulK has replied
 Message 14 by RAZD, posted 11-26-2005 7:42 AM PaulK has not replied
 Message 19 by mike the wiz, posted 11-26-2005 10:25 AM PaulK has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 2 of 151 (263088)
11-25-2005 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by PaulK
11-25-2005 8:30 AM


Next will be the list of Evangelical Priests named Steve that support evolution.
I don't think the YECs have any idea that they are but a minor cult form of religion, be it Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu or any other religion and that they should be taken seriously not for their beliefs, but for the potential damage and destruction their handicap might cause to society and civilization.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by PaulK, posted 11-25-2005 8:30 AM PaulK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by robinrohan, posted 11-26-2005 4:11 AM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 3 of 151 (263154)
11-25-2005 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by PaulK
11-25-2005 8:30 AM


That list has been posted here before. It is a list of liberal clergy, not conservatives. Lutheran ELCA is the liberal wing of the Lutheran denomination, Lutheran Missouri Synod being the conservative; United Methodist is liberal, so are the Episcopal/Anglican churches and these are represented in great numbers on that list. I did a quick check of some preachers I admire to assure myself they would not sign such a thing, and as I knew would be the case, they didn't.
There is nothing surprising about liberal churches backing evolutionism. What would be surprising would be Southern Baptists, Lutheran Missouri Synod, Reformed Baptists, Covenant Presbyterians, Reformed Presbyterians among others signing.
Conservative Christian doctrine:
What Conservative Protestants Believe - Beliefnet
Origin of Universe and Life
The biblical book of Genesis is inerrant. God created the universe and all life forms from nothing in less than 7 days, less than 10,000 years ago--not as revealed by modern science. Many resolve the conflict between scientific evidence and the book of Genesis with the contention that God created the appearance of evolution (perhaps as a test of faith), or that scientific evidence is faulty.
This message has been edited by Faith, 11-25-2005 10:12 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by PaulK, posted 11-25-2005 8:30 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by jar, posted 11-26-2005 12:24 AM Faith has replied
 Message 16 by PaulK, posted 11-26-2005 8:40 AM Faith has replied
 Message 32 by Asgara, posted 11-26-2005 12:48 PM Faith has replied
 Message 35 by bkelly, posted 11-26-2005 6:12 PM Faith has replied
 Message 36 by bkelly, posted 11-26-2005 6:37 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 4 of 151 (263166)
11-26-2005 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
11-25-2005 10:06 PM


Faith writes:
It is a list of liberal clergy, not conservatives.
More crap. It's a list of clergy. To say that they are liberal clergy is simply more spin doctoring per your usual posts and tactics. They are clergy, normal, middle of the road, conservative Christian clergy. The difference is that they are not another "The Bible according to Faith' cult.
There are over 10,000 signatures. Ten Thousand ministers. They are from just about every major Christian faith. Including just about every seminary, at least all of them that are actually accredited.
To pretend that they do not represent the mainstream Christian position is simply yet another example of willfull ignorance.
Here are a few of the churches:
Roman Catholic Church
Reformed Church in America
United Methodist Church
Congregational Church
The Old Roman Catholic Church in North America
Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
Orthodox Catholic Church
National Council of Churches in the U.S.A.
United Church of Christ
Unitarian Universalist Congregation
Baptist Church
Disciples of Christ
Presbyterian Church PC(USA)
Presbyterian Church (U. S. A.)
American Baptist Churches USA
Society of Friends
Lutheran Church
Community of Christ
Russian Orthodox Church in America
Catholic Apostolic Church of Antioch- Malabar Rite
Church of Christ Uniting
The Unitarian Church
Universalist Unitarian Church
Lancaster Moravian Church
Mennonite Church
Southern Methodist University
African Methodist Episcopal
Western Presbyterian Church
Religious Society of Friends
Southern Baptist
Church of Religious Science
Episcopal Presbyterian Church
World Council of Churches
Baptist Church of Christ
Moravian Church in America, Northern Province
Old Episcopal Church of Scotland
The Progressive National Baptist Convention

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 11-25-2005 10:06 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by NosyNed, posted 11-26-2005 12:43 AM jar has replied
 Message 6 by RAZD, posted 11-26-2005 12:46 AM jar has not replied
 Message 8 by Faith, posted 11-26-2005 3:18 AM jar has replied
 Message 9 by Faith, posted 11-26-2005 3:28 AM jar has replied
 Message 66 by Lizard Breath, posted 11-27-2005 5:15 PM jar has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 5 of 151 (263170)
11-26-2005 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
11-26-2005 12:24 AM


Representation?
To pretend that they do not represent the mainstream Christian position is simply yet another example of willfull ignorance.
It is not correct to say they "represent" anyone but themselves. Not in any formal sense. They are a representation only of the views of these indivduals. With enough numbers from an institution you could, then, start to conclude what an overall consensus of the institution was.
Separately, we have the recent statement by the RCC. Others have done the same thing. While you are technically incorrect in your choice of words that doesn't take much away from your point that Faith is putting forward the views of fringe. A fringe that has been called, by some Christians, a cult. (waddles and quacks it does).
quote:
Please note that institutions are named for identification purposes only

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by jar, posted 11-26-2005 12:24 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 11-26-2005 12:54 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 6 of 151 (263171)
11-26-2005 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
11-26-2005 12:24 AM


Mennonites are liberal???
They're one step from Amish. Moved into the 19th century by using cars.
Amish, now there's an honest fundamentalist view. Takes nothing from the world it does not believe in.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by jar, posted 11-26-2005 12:24 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 7 of 151 (263172)
11-26-2005 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by NosyNed
11-26-2005 12:43 AM


Re: Representation?
It is not correct to say they "represent" anyone but themselves.
A point I will gladly concede, since the denominations mentioned all agree that one need not check their brains at the door.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by NosyNed, posted 11-26-2005 12:43 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 8 of 151 (263182)
11-26-2005 3:18 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
11-26-2005 12:24 AM


I know you reserve the right to pass judgment on absolutely everything and deny conservative Christians that right, but I must demur. Your list is something like 75% KNOWN liberal churches and many of the rest I just don't happen to know about, but the totally liberal to leftist National Council of Churches and World Council of Churches being on the list kinda sums it up. There is also a lot of overlap. Presbyterian USA is listed twice and there is no difference between Unitarians and Unitarian Universalists. And I'm not aware of any Methodist group that is not liberal. And the RCC is definitely not Bible literalist, besides having gone very liberal overall in recent years.
I'm sorry to see a Reformed church on that list but I'm aware that there is a split in the Reformed arena on evolution. Also the Mennonites and the Moravians. But I can hope they eventually come to their senses.
I named a number of other bodies that are definitely NOT liberal, solidly conservative Bible literalist churches, that are not on that list.
This message has been edited by Faith, 11-26-2005 03:42 AM
This message has been edited by Faith, 11-26-2005 03:44 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by jar, posted 11-26-2005 12:24 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 11-26-2005 7:32 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 9 of 151 (263183)
11-26-2005 3:28 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
11-26-2005 12:24 AM


Your list
YOur spelling this out changes nothing. What I said about it stands.
Roman Catholic Church --- very liberal these days, definitely not Bible literalist
Reformed Church in America --- temporarily confused I hope
United Methodist Church -- known liberal
Congregational Church -- used to be solid conservative, but I'm not up on them now.
The Old Roman Catholic Church in North America -- Catholics are not Bible literalist
Evangelical Lutheran Church in America -- known liberal
Orthodox Catholic Church -- Catholics are not Bible literalists
National Council of Churches in the U.S.A. -- liberal to leftist organization.
United Church of Christ -- I'm not up on them
Unitarian Universalist Congregation -- totally known liberal
Baptist Church --- American Baptists and anything other than Southern Baptists are likely to be liberal
Disciples of Christ -- Not up on them
Presbyterian Church PC(USA) - known liberal
Presbyterian Church (U. S. A.) - repeat of the above
American Baptist Churches USA --- American Baptist is liberal
Society of Friends --- not up on the Quakers
Lutheran Churchv -- If it's ELCA it's liberal as I said, and I'm sure it's not Missouri Synod
Community of Christ -- not up on this one
Russian Orthodox Church in America --- very Catholic in style
Catholic Apostolic Church of Antioch- Malabar Rite -- very liberal wing of Catholic church
Church of Christ Uniting -- not up on this one
The Unitarian Church --- totally known liberal
Universalist Unitarian Church --- same as above
Lancaster Moravian Church -- sorry to see Moravians on the list
Mennonite Church -- sorry to see Mennonites on the list
Southern Methodist University --- Methodism is liberal these days
African Methodist Episcopal -- AME is even more liberal than most Methodists
Western Presbyterian Church -- not up on this denomination
Religious Society of Friends --- This is just a repeat of the Quaker entry
Southern Baptist -- apparently one congregation out of thousands?
Church of Religious Science --- not even Christian
Episcopal Presbyterian Church -- totally liberal
World Council of Churches -- liberal to leftist
Baptist Church of Christ -- not up on this one
Moravian Church in America, Northern Province --- Sorry again about the Moravians
Old Episcopal Church of Scotland -- Episcopal churches are liberal
The Progressive National Baptist Convention -- totally liberal. The word "progressive" says it all.
If you aren't aware that there was a massive divide in the churches in the early 20th century between liberals and conservatives you don't know much about church history jar. You know nothing about the whole conservative wing apparently, the conservative seminaries etc.
This message has been edited by Faith, 11-26-2005 03:29 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by jar, posted 11-26-2005 12:24 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by jar, posted 11-26-2005 7:41 AM Faith has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 151 (263185)
11-26-2005 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by jar
11-25-2005 12:59 PM


I don't think the YECs have any idea that they are but a minor cult form of religion, be it Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu or any other religion and that they should be taken seriously not for their beliefs, but for the potential damage and destruction their handicap might cause to society and civilization.
Well, according to a CNN poll back in Sept., 55% of all Americans believe that God created man in his present form. Not necessarily "yec," but certainly not believers in evolution.
That doesn't sound like a "minor cult" to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by jar, posted 11-25-2005 12:59 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by RAZD, posted 11-26-2005 7:35 AM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 15 by jar, posted 11-26-2005 7:50 AM robinrohan has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 11 of 151 (263199)
11-26-2005 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Faith
11-26-2005 3:18 AM


Faith once again misrepresents what people say.
I know you reserve the right to pass judgment on absolutely everything and deny conservative Christians that right, but I must demur.
Please quote where I said that.
Your list is something like 75% KNOWN liberal churches and many of the rest I just don't happen to know about, but the totally liberal to leftist National Council of Churches and World Council of Churches being on the list kinda sums it up.
More of the Gospel according to Faith?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Faith, posted 11-26-2005 3:18 AM Faith has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 12 of 151 (263200)
11-26-2005 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by robinrohan
11-26-2005 4:11 AM


polls.
You have to be very careful about polls and how they were taken, what questions were asked and in what order. The analysis could be superficial and not control for other factors that could influence an answer.
Polls that I have seen that do attempt to differentiate the fundamentalist beliefs from the general "oh I don't know, maybe god exists because my parents thought so and all my friends, but I haven't really thought about it" kind of answer that would be regarded as positive in some polls (like CNN), show that this proportion for literal fundamentalis views is somewhere between 15% and 20% of the USof(N)A population -- about the same as the atheist proportion.
And "polls" done on internet sites that give you four preconceived answers to choose from on a question? useless. But they get cited too.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by robinrohan, posted 11-26-2005 4:11 AM robinrohan has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 13 of 151 (263204)
11-26-2005 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Faith
11-26-2005 3:28 AM


Re: Your list
Faith, your going down the list and assigning your own spin to each of the churches is exactly what this is all about. You add silly notations such as "temporarily confused I hope" or "known liberal".
Known by who? By the Right-wing Conservative Christian Community? If that's the case, bring out your list of churches and we will have something to work with.
If you aren't aware that there was a massive divide in the churches in the early 20th century between liberals and conservatives you don't know much about church history jar.
Well Faith, time and time again I've asked you to provide the support for your position, to try to convince us that there is merit to considering your premise. Once again, here is your opportunity.
What reasons are there for anyone to consider your basic premise as a valid point?
You know nothing about the whole conservative wing apparently, the conservative seminaries etc.
Great, provide a list of these Seminaries.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Faith, posted 11-26-2005 3:28 AM Faith has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 14 of 151 (263205)
11-26-2005 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by PaulK
11-25-2005 8:30 AM


No equivocation on that statement, unlike the one used by the Discovery Institute, there is no mistaking their intent:
We the undersigned, Christian clergy from many different traditions, believe that the timeless truths of the Bible and the discoveries of modern science may comfortably coexist. We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator. To argue that God’s loving plan of salvation for humanity precludes the full employment of the God-given faculty of reason is to attempt to limit God, an act of hubris. We urge school board members to preserve the integrity of the science curriculum by affirming the teaching of the theory of evolution as a core component of human knowledge. We ask that science remain science and that religion remain religion, two very different, but complementary, forms of truth.
Faith and other fundamentalists will nit-pick the list to death, equivocating over every single conservative leaning one they find ("they are confused") and attack them with the ad hominem argument that they are "liberal" and "not true christian" and ignore the fact that they support evolution and the teaching of science in science classes in public schools.
Of course this list is just as good as the "Steve" list and just as irrelevant as the "discovery" list.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by PaulK, posted 11-25-2005 8:30 AM PaulK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by DorfMan, posted 11-26-2005 9:21 AM RAZD has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 15 of 151 (263206)
11-26-2005 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by robinrohan
11-26-2005 4:11 AM


There was a reason that I mentioned YEC. There is absolutely no reason that both Evolution and the Theory of Evolution should not be questioned. So even though I'd want to know the methodology of the CNN poll, I don't have much of a problem with 55% of Americans believing that God created man in his present form. The odds are that many of those simply have not seen the evidence or even really considered the question, and afterall, it was also a poll of Americans who are among the industrialized world's poorest educated, particularly in science.
But YEC is something different. They are simply wrong.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by robinrohan, posted 11-26-2005 4:11 AM robinrohan has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024