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Author Topic:   Heat Calculations for Post-Flood Plate Movements
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4115 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 1 of 36 (361768)
11-05-2006 2:13 AM


So I'm arguing aganist a particularly ignorant creationist who believes that moutains (such as Everest) were created after the flood (therefore removing the ridiculous amount of needed water).
However, what he either doesn't understand or chooses to ignore is that compacting Everest into 6,000 or so years would require ridiculous plate movements.
I've calculated from sea level that plate movement would need to be around 5 (60 inches) feet a year to raise Everest to its current height over 6,000 years.
What I don't have down is the corrolating heat from such plate movement. Plates as we know move about a inch a year the mantle is estimed to be around 1120 C. So it would seem logical to me that a increase in plate movement requires a increase in mantle temperature. How much temperature increase would be required for a increase from 1 inch to 60 inches in plate movement in the mantle?
I've done a rough 1 inch = 1120 and 60 inch = x but that seems like a bad estimate given that the temperature is something like 66,200 C.
Can anyone help me out here?

Replies to this message:
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 36 (361780)
11-05-2006 3:24 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 3 of 36 (361808)
11-05-2006 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by obvious Child
11-05-2006 2:13 AM


I think it'll be a pretty tricky thing to calculate, as the possible speed of motion may well depend largely on the viscosity of the molten rock down there where the plates are doing their thing. My bet would be that even a fifty degree C change in temperature could make a huge difference in viscosity up near the melting point of the rocks in question. It certainly won't be a linear relation.
Even calculating the frictional heat generated by plate motion would be equally tricky, as you don't have a good number for the coefficient of friction as a function of temperature or viscosity. But don't give him all 6000 years for his plate motion to take place - the people in India would have noticed all those earthquakes back 4000 years ago, when they were already keeping written records.

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Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 36 (362657)
11-08-2006 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by obvious Child
11-05-2006 2:13 AM


The front-running creationist theory of rapid plate tectonics is Baumgardner's 'Catastrophic Plate Tectonics'. He's a PhDed geophysicist who developed a mainstream plate tectonics simulation engine while at Los Alamos and has claimed that it can shift into a rapid mode that would break-up Pangea during the Flood:
Global Flood - Home Of Global Flood
The point for you is that rapid uplifts go hand in hand with rapid plate tectonics.
BTW, like your 'ignorant' creationist friend, I also personally believe Pangea-break-up occurred more slowly than Baumgardner, post-Flood between Noah and Babel over a period of 340 years.

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Replies to this message:
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anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 5 of 36 (362779)
11-09-2006 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Tranquility Base
11-08-2006 3:09 PM


How Could Continents Act as Billard Balls?
Such calculations, as Coragyps pointed out would be difficult to model at best. However, large masses, such as continents, do not simply start and stop at whim according to physics.
Only according to the laws of Last Thursdayism, where anything goes.
Here are a few temperature-related problems concerning runaway plate tectonics.
From:
http://home.entouch.net/dmd/subduction.htm
quote:
One final problem for Baumgardner’s runaway subduction. He writes (and I can’t find where he solved this problem ):
“One difficulty in making a connection between these calculations and the Flood is their time scale. Some 2 x 10^7 years is needed before the instability occurs in the second calculation. Most of this time is involved with the accumulation of a large blob of cold, dense material at the barrier created by the phase transition at 600 km depth.” John R. Baumgardner, “Runaway Subduction as the Driving Mechanism for the Genesis Flood,” Proceedings of the Third International Conference on Creationism, (Pittsburgh: Creation Science Fellowship, Inc., 1994), p. 74
It would take 20 million years to get runaway subduction going. This feature is not mentioned again to the best of my knowledge.
Runaway subduction is a sham. Why the YEC laity trusts their leadership is beyond me.
It is important to note it would also take a considerable amount of time to get runaway subduction to slow down to almost a stop, as we observe now and have in the recent past.
There is also a problem with the temperature and ocean profile such runaway subduction would create. From THE DEPTHS OF THE OCEANS :
quote:
In essence, the problem for young earth creationists is to develop a self-consistent model of rapid spreading that can yield the bathymetric profiles observed in the current ocean floors. Modern geology has already done so and the conductive cooling model of the ocean floor fits perfectly within the old earth paradigm.
The conductive cooling predicted by modern geology also matches the age distribution on either side of the ridge. The predicted age of a piece of ocean floor based on conductive cooling is a near perfect match for the radiometric and magnetostratigraphic age11 of the ocean floor. These observations are not consistent with the hypothetical profile shown in Figure 4. For example, radiometric ages in the convective region would be nearly identical and would show greatest change in the conductive region. This is contrary to what we observe. In short, the observed bathymetry is a near perfect match for an old earth model and seriously challenges the model proposed by Baumgardner and other advocates of rapid drift.
The idea the continents moved super-fast at a recent point in time, then magically slowed to present rates also completely violates virtually all known measurements in paleomagnetism.
To my knowledge, there is no evidence from geology of any superfast continental "drift" anywhere on Earth. If there is such evidence, please feel free to name the geologic formation, the reasoning why it indicates such activity occurred, and its exact location.
Like Coragyps, I also find it strange the Egyptians, Sumerians, the people of the Indus Valley Civilization, Chinese, and Australian Aborigenes, or for that matter any civilization, who have written and/or oral records dating from the time didn't seem to take notice of these runaway continents.
I personally know several people that work at LASL, none are as lacking in integrity or as hungry for publicity as Baumgardner appears to be in his sacrifice of one for the other.
Edited by anglagard, : Credit to Coragyps for previous post and clarity.

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obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4115 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 6 of 36 (362788)
11-09-2006 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Tranquility Base
11-08-2006 3:09 PM


Besides the fact that anglagard proved runaway subduction is a load of crap, Baumgarder himself has admitted his argument doesn't work without miracles.
quote:
Baumgarder's theory still does not work without miracles, as Baumgardner himself admitted (Baumgardner 1990a, 1990b). The thermal diffusivity of the earth would have to increase ten thousandfold to get the subduction rates proposed, and something would have to cause the advance and retreat of the magma bubble (Matsumura 1997). Miracles would also have been necessary to cool the new ocean floor and to raise sedimentary mountains in months rather than in the millions of years it would ordinarily take.
CH430: Runaway subduction

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Replies to this message:
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RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 7 of 36 (362790)
11-09-2006 3:58 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by anglagard
11-09-2006 1:23 AM


Re: How Could Continents Act as Billard Balls?
Anglagard writes:
Like Coragyps, I also find it strange the Egyptians, Sumerians, the people of the Indus Valley Civilization, Chinese, and Australian Aborigenes, or for that matter any civilization, who have written and/or oral records dating from the time didn't seem to take notice of these runaway continents.
Given that the Egyptians relied on the annual flooding of the Nile for over three thousand years it would certainly take a miracle for the river to maintain both its course and behavior if entire continents were moving as such rates.

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RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 8 of 36 (362791)
11-09-2006 4:03 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Tranquility Base
11-08-2006 3:09 PM


Tranquility writes:
The point for you is that rapid uplifts go hand in hand with rapid plate tectonics.
The point for you is that ridiculous scientific claims go hand in hand with ridiculous religious beliefs.

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Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 36 (362805)
11-09-2006 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by obvious Child
11-09-2006 3:39 AM


In a post-Flood Mesozoic scenario the subduction rates are 350 times lower so we have much less of an initiation problem and heating problem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by obvious Child, posted 11-09-2006 3:39 AM obvious Child has replied

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Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 36 (362806)
11-09-2006 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by RickJB
11-09-2006 3:58 AM


Re: How Could Continents Act as Billard Balls?
In a post-Flood Mesozoic model we have catastrophic plate tectonics stopping around 2300BC and with e.g. Rohl's (a 'non-fundamentalist') new Egyptian chronology of overlapping dynasties we can have Egypt being settled post-catastrophic tectonics.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Archer Opteryx, posted 11-09-2006 8:14 AM Tranquility Base has replied
 Message 12 by PaulK, posted 11-09-2006 9:02 AM Tranquility Base has replied
 Message 13 by RickJB, posted 11-09-2006 9:22 AM Tranquility Base has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 11 of 36 (362812)
11-09-2006 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Tranquility Base
11-09-2006 7:15 AM


The Not-So-Peaceful Pacific
Tranquility Base:
In a post-Flood Mesozoic model we have catastrophic plate tectonics stopping around 2300BC
With the resulting tsunamis sloshing around only until the time of Columbus. Of course.
You still have to wonder how the ancient Micronesians managed to settle the islands of the Asia-Pacific Rim circa 4000 BCE. They were already building villages on the island of Taiwan by that time. How exactly does one plant crops on an island that's still at the bottom of the ocean, waiting for the subduction process to raise it?
The Micronesians were impressive ocean explorers but now their feats loom larger than ever. Imagine the challenge they faced, navigating between islands that popped up and down like corks as sea levels bounced around, harbors vanished as rapidly as they appeared, and every coastline warped and compressed and stretched itself like taffy.
And they would have to beware of India barreling through, on its way to that spectacular crash with Asia...
____
(Reality check: this thread)
____
Edited by Archer Opterix, : URL.

Archer
All species are transitional.

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 Message 10 by Tranquility Base, posted 11-09-2006 7:15 AM Tranquility Base has replied

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 12 of 36 (362822)
11-09-2006 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Tranquility Base
11-09-2006 7:15 AM


Re: How Could Continents Act as Billard Balls?
Can you provide a reference which supports your claim about Rohl ? Everything I have found indicates that Rohl only removes 300 years from the chronology which places your "end point" during the 3rd Dynasty. And Rohl's chronology is almost entirely rejected by the experts because of the facts that it doesn't fit with.
And do you really think that a factor of 350 is enough ? You still require a very fast rate. Come to that, what adjustments do you have to make to Baumgardner's assumptions to get the "runaway" effect to stop at the lower rate ?
And there's still plenty of other evidence that causes problems.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Tranquility Base, posted 11-09-2006 7:15 AM Tranquility Base has replied

Replies to this message:
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RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 13 of 36 (362826)
11-09-2006 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Tranquility Base
11-09-2006 7:15 AM


Re: How Could Continents Act as Billard Balls?
Tranquility writes:
In a post-Flood Mesozoic model we have catastrophic plate tectonics stopping around 2300BC and with e.g. Rohl's (a 'non-fundamentalist') new Egyptian chronology of overlapping dynasties we can have Egypt being settled post-catastrophic tectonics.
As far as I'm aware Rohl's new chronology moves all events prior to sacking of Thebes in 664 B.C. forward by around 350 years. Either way, Egyptian civilisation would still have already been over 2000 years old!
Not much help for your argument there....
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

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Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 36 (362834)
11-09-2006 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Archer Opteryx
11-09-2006 8:14 AM


Re: The Not-So-Peaceful Pacific
C14 is partially calibrated and due to (i) the errors in Egyptology and (ii) effects of acclerated decay on C14 we believe that most human civilization events 4000BC-2500BC can be compressed into 2500BC-2000BC.

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Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 36 (362841)
11-09-2006 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by PaulK
11-09-2006 9:02 AM


Re: How Could Continents Act as Billard Balls?
A few years ago I summarised Rohl as:
STANDARD: Old K (2650-2150BC), Middle K (2050-1700BC), New K (1550-1100BC)
REVISED: Old K (2100-1600BC), Middle K (1750-1450BC), New K (1050-600BC)
so in the end it becomes a 550 year correction.
The supporting refs MAY be here:
http://EvC Forum: David Rohl's Research (Re: 'A Test Of Time', re: Egyptian chronology) -->EvC Forum: David Rohl's Research (Re: 'A Test Of Time', re: Egyptian chronology)
Most summaries only look at his Middle-New Kingdom stuff.
In any case once one goes pre-start Old Kingdom you're purely on C14.

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