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Author Topic:   YEC Geologic Column - Created with apparent age?
deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2893 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 61 of 82 (218727)
06-22-2005 4:27 PM


I have always thought "apparent age" is the only way YEC works.
I am surprised that more YECs don't embrace "creation with apparent age" They are invoking all kinds of miracles anyway, what is one more? Noah's ark is still a problem of course - because even if you leave out the dinosaurs you still can't get all of the present day species in. You got insects, PLANTS (many would not survive a global flood), prey animals to feed all of the predators - and please don't tell me all of the animals were herbivores until after the flood - the Bible itself contradicts that. Man himself was eating meat right from the beginning - Abel sacrificed a sheep - why was he raising them if he didn't eat one now and then?

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Brian, posted 06-22-2005 4:50 PM deerbreh has replied
 Message 64 by Philip, posted 06-22-2005 5:51 PM deerbreh has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 62 of 82 (218737)
06-22-2005 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by deerbreh
06-22-2005 4:27 PM


Re: I have always thought "apparent age" is the only way YEC works.
Abel sacrificed a sheep - why was he raising them if he didn't eat one now and then?
Thermal underwear?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by deerbreh, posted 06-22-2005 4:27 PM deerbreh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by deerbreh, posted 06-22-2005 5:48 PM Brian has replied

  
deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2893 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 63 of 82 (218750)
06-22-2005 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Brian
06-22-2005 4:50 PM


Re: I have always thought "apparent age" is the only way YEC works.
Thermal underwear?
I assume you are joking but if not - very doubtful that Abel would have been spinning wool. Wild sheep were hair sheep - they had only a thin wool undercoat. First use of wool most certainly occured a long time after domestication. The woolen coat of modern sheep is the product of thousands of years of selective breeding. Of course the skins may have been used much earlier but why would man go to the trouble of raising sheep for the skins and throw away the meat?

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 Message 62 by Brian, posted 06-22-2005 4:50 PM Brian has replied

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Philip
Member (Idle past 4723 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 64 of 82 (218751)
06-22-2005 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by deerbreh
06-22-2005 4:27 PM


Re: I have always thought "apparent age" is the only way YEC works.
Man himself was eating meat right from the beginning - Abel sacrificed a sheep - why was he raising them if he didn't eat one now and then?
I suppose you may have a point. I speculated that man was distinctly herbivorous before the flood, as per scriptural comparisons.
Man attempted to hide from judgment with fig-leaves as aprons, then he was given skins (sheep or whatever) to hide his nakedness (presumably pointing to the Lamb of God that covers sins).
At any rate, I now think he may have ate the pascal lamb as well (as Christ also commanded)
Philip

This message is a reply to:
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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2893 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 65 of 82 (218759)
06-22-2005 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Philip
06-22-2005 5:51 PM


Herbivores and Carnivores
I think the herbivore/carnivore question is the biggest flaw in the YEC case. If one argues herbivory before the flood it makes no philosophical sense because the "Fall" presumabebly introduced death and bloodshed - we know the earth itself was cursed because of Adam's sin. And animals were killed to cover the nakedness of Adam and Eve. So the "logical" time for carnivores to arise was after the Fall, not after the Flood (Just to be clear, I think the idea that the carnivores were once herbivores is nonsense - biologically it doesn't make any sense at all. But then I think Genesisand much of the OT is an epic myth - so there is no hope for me at all.)

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Philip
Member (Idle past 4723 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 66 of 82 (218764)
06-22-2005 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Minnemooseus
06-15-2005 4:02 PM


Re: Apparent Age
Moose,
Regarding apparent age and geological events: From an apparent YEC view (perhaps in unconscious denial) I’ve speculated some things:
1) YEC’ism and time itself don’t necessarily refer to our solar time pieces. i.e., The sun was not manifest until the 4th day.
2) As per a 60’s song (by some female) I’ve looked at clouds (time) from both sides now from east to west and still somehow its cloud’s (time’s) illusions I recall I really don’t know clouds (time) at all. That is to say, time is both a metaphysical illusion as well as an empirical event.
3) Given special relativity (E=mCC) theory coupled with inflationary theory of universal expansion, both atomic and diurnal (solar) clocks may have slowed down from different perspectives within or without our earth/universe.
4) Atomic time and diurnal time have diverse mis-calibrations over time. I may be an OEC at one cosmic point of time and a YEC the next.
IN THE BEGINNING:
EARTH was primordial (before Day 1). On Day 3 EARTH is redefined as dry land
I personally see the earth as WITHOUT FORM AND VOID, darkness covering a SEA of quarks, perhaps (if you will).
And, the Bible calls these WATERS at and/or before Day 1, even On Day 3 the gathering together of waters is now called SEAS (by God).
HEAVEN is created on Day 1. On day 2, however, the expanse (firmament) is given the name HEAVEN.
In SUM, I don’t think any non-chaotic natural processes had manifested IN THE BEGINNING. I may be wrong.
Philip

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Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 67 of 82 (218910)
06-23-2005 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by deerbreh
06-22-2005 5:48 PM


Re: I have always thought "apparent age" is the only way YEC works.
Thermal underwear?
I assume you are joking
I was joking
Of course the skins may have been used much earlier but why would man go to the trouble of raising sheep for the skins and throw away the meat?
They wouldn't.
What we have to remember is that a lot of the Bible consists of myths, legends, campfire tales, folk tales etc. passed down from generation to generation.
You can tell a lot about the society that the story comes from when you consider the contents of the tale. Most of the early material in the Bible came from a nomadic society, and this is reflected in the texts. Nomads always have 'home bases' along their traditional pasturage routes, all nomadic societies have small villages and all nomadic groups have/had some form of agriculture. The males fo nomadic groups do not discuss growing crops because itis seen as woman's work or work for weak males.
Look at part of the story in Genesis 3:
14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
"Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel."
16 To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.
3:17 Is an explanation to explain to the group why people have to work so hard, why does man have to work the land, it makes sense to them.
3:14-15 Explains mankind's natural revulsion to snakes.
3:16 Explains why childbirth is so painful. (So women would have us believe )
These are just tales invented beside campfires by an ancient people to explain why things are they way they are.
Brian.

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 Message 63 by deerbreh, posted 06-22-2005 5:48 PM deerbreh has not replied

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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 68 of 82 (218946)
06-23-2005 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Brian
06-23-2005 8:42 AM


Topic drift alert - People - It's a geology topic
Non-admin mode topic drift alert.
Moose

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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2893 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 69 of 82 (218966)
06-23-2005 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Philip
06-22-2005 6:27 PM


Re: Apparent Age
"Given special relativity (E=mCC) theory coupled with inflationary theory of universal expansion, both atomic and diurnal (solar) clocks may have slowed down from different perspectives within or without our earth/universe." (edited to add quotes)
You can't be serious. Do you have any idea of the effect of changing solar time? That means the speed of the earth's rotation and/or revolution is changing. Granted, it is possible there may be minute changes in the earth's rotation and revolution but not enough to make any difference in our perception of geological time (which is what is required to go from old earth to young earth). The ONLY way YEC makes any sense geologically OR biologically is creation with apparent age.
This message has been edited by deerbreh, 06-23-2005 12:15 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Philip, posted 06-22-2005 6:27 PM Philip has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Philip, posted 06-24-2005 11:30 AM deerbreh has replied

  
Philip
Member (Idle past 4723 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 70 of 82 (219316)
06-24-2005 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by deerbreh
06-23-2005 12:15 PM


Re: Our Perception of Geological Time
Deerbreh,
I was trying to communicate TIME itself. I spoke of measly clocks (solar and atomic) because I really don’t know what time is. I was talking about those timepieces only to clarify time somewhat, not to refute their accuracy.
I personally allow apparent age in a YEC scheme. Apparent age could, should, and would seem to satisfy me enough. Planting the garden (of Eden), God forming man from the dust of the earth, etc., screams apparent age. But, then, I’d still have to reconcile post-creation events with existential science at least to a reasonable extent.
The fact of Fish fossils on top of tall mountains screams global flood to many geologists (and simpletons like me). Nonetheless, a global flood scheme might not be parsimonious to uniform-geological-column schemes.
Time itself seems to me to be a byproduct of light or something. Notwithstanding all questionable clocks, time seems to me to be very elusive when special relativity theory is coupled with big-bang-inflationary theories, or the Genesis 2nd Day scenario firmament expansion.
Inflationary theories suggest the universe expanded in violation of E=mCC. (Now, I personally wouldn’t be insulted if you condemn inflationary theory as mad science, and then stop teaching it to our children.)
But it seems logical that:
1) The geological column may be younger from God’s stationary perspective (say) near the outside of the universe (i.e., 3rd Heaven). A day with the Lord is as a thousand years, seems truth enough.
2) OEC and YEC are interchangeable depending on cosmic perspectives, God and man.
3) Time is a great mystery of which clocks themselves don’t help much to define.
4) We feel effects of time (if there be such a thing)
5) The geo-column has undergone effects of time in a mysterious manner we perceive little about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by deerbreh, posted 06-23-2005 12:15 PM deerbreh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Minnemooseus, posted 06-24-2005 1:53 PM Philip has replied
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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 71 of 82 (219346)
06-24-2005 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Philip
06-24-2005 11:30 AM


Re: Our Perception of Geological Time
2) OEC and YEC are interchangeable depending on cosmic perspectives, God and man.
Maybe it is a "young" creation from God's perspective, but from the perspective mainstream science sees, the Earth is old. Are the YEC's looking at it from God's perspective or from science's perspective?
5) The geo-column has undergone effects of time in a mysterious manner we perceive little about.
You may perceive little about it, but such is not the case for the geologists that actually study the rocks. The Earth's geology is the result of a vast sequence of understandable processes and events.
Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Philip, posted 06-24-2005 11:30 AM Philip has replied

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Philip
Member (Idle past 4723 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 72 of 82 (219388)
06-24-2005 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Minnemooseus
06-24-2005 1:53 PM


Re: Our Perception of Geological Time
Are the YEC's looking at it from God's perspective or from science's perspective?
Forgive my grammar, Moose. There are different kinds of YECs and each will give you a different answer, some lean more toward metaphysical philosophy and some lean more toward existential science. I stand corrected and was wrong to communicate OEC is man’s perspective and YEC is God’s perspective of time (concerning the geo-column).
Now concerning your latter statement: geologists study rocks The Earth's geology is the result of a vast sequence of understandable processes and events.
Geology experts (like yourself) are aware that: Not all geologists subscribe to geological uniformatarianism; a few YEC geologists buy into the catastrophic global flood model to explain many apparent geological flukes and geology’s vast sequence of understandable processes and events.
In sum, to most honest YECs, IN THE BEGINNING might perhaps be understood in terms of:
1) Pre and post-global flood considerations regarding geological strata and/or
2) A primordial photon-less earth one without form and void and total darkness
3) Or, perhaps, a great (OEC) geological gap (btw Gen 1.1 and 1.3) that harmonizes with empirical processes.
Most YECs will attempt to fit geology neatly into fundy naivety. Their hypotheses follow Biblical and gospel precepts, so as not to clash with their Salvation.
Philip
-----------------------
DPM (podiatrist)
MS (biomedical science)
OEC Maybe
YEC Maybe
Biological mega-Evolution - No

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Replies to this message:
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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 989 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 73 of 82 (219413)
06-24-2005 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Philip
06-24-2005 5:05 PM


Re: Our Perception of Geological Time
Philip writes:
Not all geologists subscribe to geological uniformatarianism; a few YEC geologists buy into the catastrophic global flood model to explain many apparent geological flukes and geology’s vast sequence of understandable processes and events.
YECs represent a significant minority of professional geologists. It's almost impossible to get a degree in geology and adhere to YECism.
One must start out a YEC in order to remain one after getting a degree in geology as I have yet to hear of anyone converting to YECism based on the data.

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 Message 72 by Philip, posted 06-24-2005 5:05 PM Philip has replied

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 Message 75 by Philip, posted 06-25-2005 11:00 PM roxrkool has replied

  
deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2893 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 74 of 82 (219463)
06-24-2005 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Philip
06-24-2005 11:30 AM


Re: Our Perception of Geological Time
"I personally allow apparent age in a YEC scheme."
Ok, but that is one cynical God you have created there. Create the earth in 6 days and plant all kinds of fossils to make a young earth look old just to confuse the silly human scientists. Create humans capable of rational thought, say that the creation is "good" and then write a book that contradicts man's rational conclusions about the earth.
"The fact of Fish fossils on top of tall mountains screams global flood to many geologists..."
No, it doesn't. Only to YEC "geologists" of which there aren't "many", if any. It "screams" plate tectonics, is what it does.

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 Message 70 by Philip, posted 06-24-2005 11:30 AM Philip has not replied

  
Philip
Member (Idle past 4723 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 75 of 82 (219642)
06-25-2005 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by roxrkool
06-24-2005 6:30 PM


Re: Converting to geological YECism
What's that?
Rox, I'm sure perhaps one or two honest ones awakened to YECism in graduate-level geology after noting "Fish fossils" in your bodacious mountain-tops of Colorado.
But here’s an interesting Freudian slip which sounds like geologist conspiracy. You stated: It's almost impossible to get a degree in geology and adhere to YECism. This is appalling. I certainly hope some lurker’s taxes aren’t funding such geological bigotry.
I converted to YECism during my freshman year at medical school after reading geological YECism for the first time in my life. I already possessed 2 science degrees: electronic engineering (AAS) and Psychology (BS). Up to then, I followed OECism. It was that old fundy "gap-theory" elaborating upon Gen. 1.1-3.
Currently, I hold an MS in biomedical science, have practiced podiatric medicine about 14 years, and have been board certified in podiatric surgery most of that period. I personally can’t conceive of any mega-ToE from any physiological perspective. Mutational NS is way-out for me.
At present I’m open to OEC because I don’t really know what TIME is. How about you, Rox? Do you or your geological authorities speculate anything cosmic about time and/or the primordial geosphere?
Notwithstanding your Newtonian clocks, this topic is IN THE BEGINNING and requires relativistic insight, due to big-bang event(s), inflationary theory(s), etc., in a primordial geosphere.
Trying to keep to topic, I’ve already HYPOTHESIZED that
1) The geosphere may have been a "sea of quarks" (or something) in the primordial geosphere.
2) A "creation design" event occurred directly upon geological matter, in the beginning
3) Photons appeared and universal expansion occurred by omnipotent force as would seem parsimonious to inflationary theory at or beyond E=mCC.
4) Non-chaotic geological formations occurred before during or after the cosmic excellencies manifested. That might include spherical excellencies of solar systems and galaxies, quantum science, higher elements, life, consciousness, apperception, and/or conscience formation.
5) Timelines are extremely elusive.
6) Finally, such non-chaotic (excellent) geological formations (during their generation) parsimoniously suggest redemptive events permeated everywhere. In other words, geo-science proves that the handiwork of God and His Redeemer continued upon the geosphere even after the beginning.
This message has been edited by Philip, 06-25-2005 11:01 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by roxrkool, posted 06-24-2005 6:30 PM roxrkool has replied

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