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Author Topic:   Senator Al Franken?
Percy
Member
Posts: 22617
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 123 of 300 (823883)
11-18-2017 3:33 PM


Just now noticed this thread, haven't had a chance to read it yet, here's my quick take.
Franken was a comedian at the time, and he was helping put on a show to a young and bawdy audience. After such a show on the way back this photo probably seemed funny:
If he's not touching her, it's just a poor attempt at humor and he should keep his job. If he's touching her that's unforgivable molestation and he should resign.
But Franken admits thrusting his tongue into Tweeden's mouth during a rehearsed kiss. That's unforgivable and he should resign.
--Percy

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22617
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 128 of 300 (823956)
11-20-2017 12:31 PM


Franken's Got to Go
Another woman comes forward. From CNN: Woman says Franken inappropriately touched her in 2010
Where there's fire there's inevitably many more little fires. This instance at the Minnesota State Fair must be just the tip of the iceberg. Franken has undoubtedly been pulling stunts like this for years. We know this, whether any more women decide to come forward or not.
And what do you know, more fires are emerging, just came across this: Leeann Tweeden was hardly Franken’s first groping victim. Apparently Franken and Davis used their comedy act to publicly take advantage of very young women. That's despicable.
About this:
The photographer is identified as "Photographer". Yeah, I'm convinced. Oh, look at this, it's already been revealed as bogus: Al Franken’s Photographer Saying Groping Image Of Leeann Tweeden Was Staged Is A Fake Quote
In case it hasn't been reported here yet, Tweeden started as a sports reporter, she worked on-air at Fox Sports News for a while, she once appeared on Sean Hannity's show, and she's appeared nude in Playboy. Nothing in that makes her fair game for molestation, and I'll use the word despicable again, this time to describe attacks on victims of molestation.
I like Al Franken. I liked him as a comedian and I like him as a politician. But we can't tolerate sexual predators, and especially not in positions of considerable responsibility. Franken's gotta go.
I liked this tweet found further down the page about the photographer quote being fake:: "The people defending Al Franken are as pathetic as you defending Roy Moore. You all make this country so much worse." We can't be the kind of people who say, "Sure he's a creep, but he's our creep." We're better than that.
--Percy

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22617
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 146 of 300 (824391)
11-27-2017 6:48 PM


Frankern: Resign Now
In today's Washington Post in the article ‘I know that I’ve let a lot of people down,’ Franken says on return to Capitol, this paragraph appeared:
quote:
As to why he is unable to say whether more women might accuse him of improper conduct, Franken said that is because the accusations aired so far took him by surprise: If you had asked me two weeks ago will any woman come out with an allegation like this, I’d have said no.
If Franken remembers decades of groping women's butts this poorly, if to him it is such a minor thing that he can't even recall these episodes, he should resign now. He's not fit for public office. He's much more fit than the groper/liar-in-chief, but he's still not fit.
--Percy

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 Message 147 by NoNukes, posted 11-27-2017 6:52 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
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 Message 150 by Minnemooseus, posted 11-28-2017 1:02 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22617
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 154 of 300 (824413)
11-28-2017 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Minnemooseus
11-28-2017 1:02 AM


Re: Franken: Resign Now
Minnemooseus writes:
Suppose most or all the charges against him are indeed false. If you were him, how would you handle the accusations?
I believe the women.
According to NPR this morning, 98% of workplace harassment claims (not Franken's situation, but close enough to be relevant) are dismissed by judges, who are merely following the law regarding thresholds to go forward to trial. I don't believe 98% of women are lying. I believe hardly any of them are lying. The system is very strongly stacked against women. Unfortunately, this current heightened dialogue will subside and little will change.
I hope Franken finds a way to retain his job with honor, but that is not possible as long as he denies awareness of a longstanding pattern of despicable behavior that no perpetrator without some mental pathology could reasonably ever forget. NoNukes suggested that Franken may be receiving some excellent legal advice, and perhaps that explains the strategy he's employing, but whatever the case he appears focused on retaining his position in the Senate and not on forthrightly facing up to what he's done.
My advice? Resign now, make full disclosures including honest descriptions of the kinds of things he would do to women and including all specific instances he can recall, invite women to come forward, make sincere apologies in person, get personally involved in women's rights groups. If the person appointed to replace him in the Senate doesn't work out he can run again in 2020, if honor and trust have been restored.
--Percy

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 Message 150 by Minnemooseus, posted 11-28-2017 1:02 AM Minnemooseus has replied

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 Message 155 by ramoss, posted 11-28-2017 11:28 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 159 by Minnemooseus, posted 11-29-2017 3:07 AM Percy has replied
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22617
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 157 of 300 (824430)
11-28-2017 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by RAZD
11-28-2017 12:04 PM


Re: Franken: Resign Now
RAZD writes:
And I still don't see how Franken's purported actions rise to the level of child sex trading and serial child abuse.
I don't think anyone is saying that they do.
If Franken resigns and other more serious scumbags don't then that will not be just.
Franken has no control over how others conduct themselves. That is between they and their God. But if Franken resigns, faces what he's done forthrightly, and dedicates himself to righting his wrongs on both the personal and the political levels, he would be conducting himself with integrity.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Didn't notice someone changed the title of this subthread. Restoring it to original subtitle.

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 Message 180 by Percy, posted 11-30-2017 2:10 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22617
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 161 of 300 (824461)
11-29-2017 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by Minnemooseus
11-29-2017 3:07 AM


Re: Guilty by statistics
Minnemooseus writes:
But there is surely some small fraction of a percentage of women who are less than truthful.
Yes, of course.
And I think Franken might well be a prime target for such a thing. Maybe that Tweeden photo opened the floodgates for some women to think "We need to take this guy down, even if it means lying."
How would you react if I claimed, "And I think Moore might well be a prime target for such a thing. Maybe that Corfman story opened the floodgates for some women to think 'We need to take this guy down, even if it means lying.'"
Or how would you react if I claimed, "And I think Trump might well be a prime target for such a thing. Maybe that first accuser opened the floodgates for some women to think 'We need to take this guy down, even if it means lying.'" Besides, that Action Hollywood tape was faked, anyway.
Or, to flip the script, how would you react if I claimed, "And I think Clinton might well be a prime target for such a thing. Maybe that Gennifer Flowers thing opened the floodgates for some women to think 'We need to take this guy down, even if it means lying.'"
I'm not actually much bothered by the Tweeden thing. She's a big girl. I much more bothered by the innocent and unsuspecting women at events like the Minnesota State Fair standing next to their senator and getting groped. Until Franken admits recalling this pattern of behavior that began when he was still part of Franken and Davis he hasn't even taken the first step on the road to recovering his credibility and integrity.
Even if all the charges are true, that seems to be a bit harsh. I'm not buying the Tweeden angle, and the other ALLEGED incidents seem to be at worst still pretty minor, especially considering Franken's strong record of working for progressive women's issues (and other things). I think condemning Franken seems to be more of a "shooting yourself in the progressive women's issuesp foot" sort of thing.
You're doing what the Moore and Trump supporters are doing, supporting your guy. Integrity has to start somewhere, why not with the Democrats.p
--Percy

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22617
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 163 of 300 (824471)
11-29-2017 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Phat
11-29-2017 9:54 AM


Re: Guilty by statistics
Phat writes:
And the question is which issue we should be focused on? The integrity of the Democrats or the political war to gain seats of power?
Not what should we focus on, but what should anyone focus on? Integrity, honesty, principle, virtue, truth, decency, goodness, virtue, generosity, kindness, character. Of what value is the seat of power if in attaining it one becomes the very thing one sought to replace?
--Percy

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22617
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 165 of 300 (824476)
11-29-2017 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by ramoss
11-29-2017 11:41 AM


Re: Guilty by statistics
ramoss writes:
Since the Washington post got fake claims about Roy Moore to try to discredit them, I am going to suspect claims against politicians for a while.
Then liars win. As political theorist Hannah Arendt wrote a long time ago:
quote:
If everybody always lies to you, the consequence is not that you believe the lies, but rather that nobody believes anything any longer.
The quote isn't perfect for this context, but the point is that Trump and the Republicans are devaluing and obfuscating truth. There *is* truth out there, and we should require it from all our men and women in public service. The example of Trump, the national liar, cannot become the norm.
Franken must take appropriate action if he is to avoid contributing to this extermination of truth. This link's about how Franken and Davis used to take advantage of very young women called onto the stage during their comedy act by grabbing their butts: Leeann Tweeden was hardly Franken’s first groping victim. And then years later we have this story about Franken grabbing a women's butt: Woman says Franken inappropriately touched her in 2010. And later two more women make the same accusation that he grabbed their butts: Two More Women Accuse Sen. Al Franken Of Inappropriate Touching. I believe the women.
To not devalue truth Franken must own this. Whatever words he chooses he must in effect say, "I did this, a person in my position of trust cannot do this, and I must therefore resign my position."
--Percy

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22617
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 166 of 300 (824490)
11-29-2017 4:20 PM


Et tu, Garrison Keillor
Just what is going on up there in Minnesota? Something in the air or water? It's too cold? Too many lakes? What?
Garrison Keillor, ex-host of ‘A Prairie Home Companion,’ fired after allegations of improper behavior
Keillor describes it as accidental contact, but it sounds like he hasn't received a copy of the complaint yet, and no one's released any details yet other than that there's been a complaint and he's been fired, so there's no way to form an opinion at this point. But concerning accidental contact, is there any guy out there who has never accidentally elbowed a boob? Do I need to resign my position here at EvC?
I still say I believe the woman, but this is a strange one, and I await the details.
--Percy

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 Message 167 by Phat, posted 11-29-2017 4:28 PM Percy has replied
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 Message 175 by Minnemooseus, posted 11-29-2017 11:57 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22617
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 168 of 300 (824506)
11-29-2017 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Phat
11-29-2017 4:28 PM


Re: Et tu, Garrison Keillor
Phat writes:
And why are all of the women in the country suddenly coming out with this stuff at the same time? Were men really pigs all along?
My wife and I agree on this: yes.
Decades ago I had a friend who had spent a few years in the bar scene and confided in me that he'd treated women just terribly. It was behavior that felt normal at the time, pressuring women verbally and physically (not violently) to get them into bed, then discarding them. Then he got a little older and became appalled at his behavior. He got married, had two sons, became a model husband and father. But some guys (many of them in politics apparently) never grow up.
--Percy

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22617
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 176 of 300 (824536)
11-30-2017 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by ramoss
11-29-2017 9:24 PM


Re: Guilty by statistics
Do whatever fact checking you need to do, develop whatever confidence you need to have. Do you think awareness that there would be skepticism in the form of hinting at things like photo shenanigans and sting operations and so forth had any influence on the decisions of the women who decided to remain anonymous?
--Percy

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22617
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 177 of 300 (824538)
11-30-2017 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by Minnemooseus
11-29-2017 11:57 PM


Re: Et tu, Garrison Keillor
About Keillor, the action by MPR does seem precipitous. I presume MPR has actually seen the complaint, which hasn't been made public yet, and I'd like to know the actual complaint before making any judgments. I can't say "I believe the woman" because I have no idea what the woman is actually accusing Keillor of. All we know is Keillor's description of what he believes the complaint is.
About Franken, his refusal to acknowledge a behavior that audiences observed on stage, and that evidently continued after he became a Senator, looks very bad. I believe the women.
We're just going to have to face the fact that men in positions of power frequently abuse that power sexually, that neither the left nor the right has a monopoly on this behavior, and some of those who get caught are going to be men we like (Al Franken, Garrison Keillor), and some are going to be men we don't like (Roy Moore, Donald Trump).
The women, whether making complaints about men from the left or right, deserve to be treated with dignity and respect rather than with skepticism and suspicion. Their stories will be checked out to the extent possible, and unfortunately in most cases it will come down to a he-said/she-said and nothing will happen, something women are aware of when they first bring the complaint forward. But like I said, I believe the women are in the vast majority of cases honest and truthful, and that men are getting away with sexual harassment wholesale. Secretly issue all women covert body cameras and I believe that in no time a huge number of men would find themselves up on harassment charges impossible to deny.
--Percy

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 Message 175 by Minnemooseus, posted 11-29-2017 11:57 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22617
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 178 of 300 (824541)
11-30-2017 9:28 AM


What Al Franken Might Have Said After Resigning
This is what Al Franken might have said after resigning:
quote:
Some of what is being said about me is untrue or mischaracterized, but there is enough truth in these stories to make me feel embarrassed and ashamed.
...
Repairing the damage will take a lot of time and soul-searching and I’m committed to beginning that effort. It is now my full-time job. The last two days have forced me to take a very hard look at my own troubling flaws. It’s been humbling. I am blessed to be surrounded by the people I love. I thank them for their patience and grace.
The above quote is from Matt Lauer, fired yesterday from his job at NBC hosting the Today show.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Typo.

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22617
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 180 of 300 (824574)
11-30-2017 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Percy
11-28-2017 1:34 PM


Re: Franken: Resign Now
I again call upon Al Franken to resign. Today's news brings another report of another groping. This article is from the Washington Post: Sen. Al Franken accused of groping again this time by an Army veteran
How many more victims remain silent? We'll never know. You men out there, think about how you would behave if you were a female victim of sexual harassment or assault. One thing you would know up front is that coming forward rarely ends well for the victim. It is also common of many people to want to avoid making a fuss, avoid attracting attention, and certainly avoid the limelight. I think most men, after reflecting on this from the female perspective, would conclude that they, too, would be very, very unlikely to come forward. This is the the strong reticence many women experience.
Today's New York Times has an interesting article about Why People Doubt Victims of Sexual Harassment. I suggest that those who doubt the women read this article and consider each of the reasons it discusses, which I list here:
  • The victim doesn’t act like one.
  • She stayed friendly with her abuser.
  • She did not come forward right away.
  • Her story does not add up.
  • She didn’t fight back.
Another question I think those who doubt the victims should be asking themselves is why people have much more doubt about victims of their guy than the other side's guy.
--Percy

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22617
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 185 of 300 (824996)
12-06-2017 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by Percy
11-30-2017 2:10 PM


Re: Franken: Resign Now
I again call upon Al Franken to resign, as John Conyers did yesterday amidst reports of his own style of sexual harassment. Today's news brings yet another report of Franken forcing himself upon a women: Another woman says Franken tried to forcibly kiss her
Most women will remain silent. The six who have come forward so far represent merely the tip of the iceberg.
--Percy

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 Message 195 by Minnemooseus, posted 12-06-2017 11:06 PM Percy has replied

  
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