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That's not what I mean. Iraq has clean water. Iran has clean water. North Korea has clean water. I'm talking about their social mores. Nations such as these understand violence as a means to an ends. You can't just change a place like the Middle East over night when the cultural influence is so ingrained in them.

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Then give me some other reasons.

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So you're saying that the only reason why we are still there is so Bush can save face? That seems totally unreasonable since he could simply just say that his objective was met. Obviously there is a more literal reason-- and that is ensuring that Iraq's infrastructure is intact, because if it is not, then some Imam with a deathwish could take control of the country and make the situation just as bad as was with Saddam or even worse.The last thing we need is another Ahmadinejad in power with aspirations of worldwide Wahhabiism.

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"God creates out of nothing. Wonderful you say. Yes, to be sure, but he does what is still more wonderful: he makes saints out of sinners." -Sren Kierkegaard

If you look at the places I mentioned I don't believe you will find Iran, Iraq or North Korea in the list.Don't you ever get tired of misrepresenting what others have said? Not just Bush. Mostly Cheney and his business associates. Bush is just a tool they use.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

The point is that perhaps you should have. You might as well have. There is a nasty habit in this forum with blaming America for all of the world's miseries, as if no one was accountable for their own failures. Its a very typical blame game wherein progressive cultural there is a perpetual scapegoat to explain failure or the embrace of mediocrity.If a mouse so much as farts in Cameroon then somehow it explains how the big bad evil empire is to blame. Alright then. No, just something more than platitude. What I mean by that is the extremely naive notions that pervade much of the liberal cultural. "Give peace a chance!" they say. To which the reply is, rather sarcastically, "Gee guys, why didn't we think of that?"That's a platitude. And they're worthless because they don't give any indication of how that might come to fruition, especially when the opposition remains in defiance after diplomacy fails. Rather than blame a money-hungry, blood-thirsty tyrant like Saddam, the convenient scapegoat has to be Bush and his Satanic war machine summoned from the seventh circle of hell with all the malice and spite it can muster. Yet, the obvious eludes the masses. And I swear it seems that they pray for disaster just so they can say they were right all along. The problem is we have people that believe its just a "myth," and also that poverty causes crime, and, and, and. What are you to do with those who habitually abuse it? Jesus said preach the gospel to the ends of the earth, and to feed His flock-- both spiritually and physically. So, again, if you want politicians to obey the counsel of the Lord, then it needs to be the complete counsel, no?

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"God creates out of nothing. Wonderful you say. Yes, to be sure, but he does what is still more wonderful: he makes saints out of sinners." -Sren Kierkegaard

I thought I'd add a few thoughts on this from my Canadian perspective. I totally agree with the reason that you give for staying in Iraq. If the US and UK were to pull out now there would be full blown civil war. The problem though is that I can't see any reason to think that it will be any better 10 years from now. Are you prepared to see your citizens dying in that country for another (fill in the blank) years?I'll be honest in saying that when Iraq was attacked I argued that it was the right thing to do. I saw it as freeing an oppressed people giving them the chance to become self-governing. I saw Iraq as a possible stepping stone to bringing peace to the area. I had no idea of how naive I was about the situation in the Middle East.Frankly however, I could afford to be naive but Bush and Blair couldn't. They should have been aware that the sectarian hatred that exists in that country was not going to be resolved by removing Hussein. They should have been aware that they were never going to win the propaganda war with the other Arab countries. If anything it has hardened the eastern hearts against the US and other western countries.I also think that there is something we have to remember as Christians. This realization has brought about a change in my own thinking. Jesus was a first century Jew. Israel was occupied and controlled by the Romans. The Jews were being taxed to death and in many cases brutalised. Jesus was very clear that the way to defeat the Romans was not militarily. He called on his followers to, "turn the other cheek", "go the extra mile" and to "love their enemies". I'm not suggesting that this is as easy as it sounds but I think that it should be used as a guiding principle. Dropping bombs on evil is not likely to bring about a long term solution whereas changing hearts, (not easily done I'll agree) is. If you fight evil with evil then evil is bound to win.Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

oh wah wah poor america. piss off. i'm not part of liberal culture. i'm part of the intellectual elite.

What is so funny is no one has blamed America for all the worlds problems. Making a statement like "There is a nasty habit in this forum with blaming America for all of the world's miseries, as if no one was accountable for their own failures." is simply another example of trying to use misrepresentation to misdirect the audience's attention in the hope no one sees the attempt to palm the pea and change the subject.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

generally.

People who believe in secular government - like myself, or like many Christians - believe that laws should be justified by their secular purposes, not because they appear in holy books.With me so far? That means, when someone comes up with a new law, I don't mind that they may have cribbed it word for word out of the Bible - as long as they can justify that law by explaining the secular good that it will do.Obviously a law like "don't murder" has a positive secular purpose, in addition to its coherence with the Ten Commandments. Indeed I have absolutely no problem with exhorting Christians to govern in a Christian way, so long as there's a compelling secular purpose in what they intend to do.I see a great secular purpose in charity, too. I don't want to prevent Christians from operating in government, and it would be stupid to think that their religion wouldn't inflect their judgement. I simply draw a line where I'll oppose Christian-based laws unless they serve a compelling secular purpose too. Bans on murder does serve such a purpose. Bans on gay marriage does not (or, at least, I've not been informed of the secular purpose.)

do you even know what wahhabiism is and where it came from? i really doubt there are any wahhabis in iran. they're shi'a. wahhabiism is a strict sect of sunni islam. they tend to stay in saudi arabia... you know. our ally.

but you know what. let's talk about this. you may be right. but not in the way you think.you're right in saying there are personal commands and greater commands. "love your neighbor as yourself" is a greater command. "love the lord with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength" is a great command too, but it is, by its nature, a personal command.there are different kinds of sin. there are sins against god, against yourself, and against others. sins against god are personal because they deal with your personal relationship with god. sins against yourself are personal because they are against yourself and also deal with god in the "temple" sense. sins against others are not personal and thus can be corporate. sexual sin is against yourself. it is personal, not corporate, and must be approached personally and not legislated.various malicious attacks, such as rape and murder and theft and the like are corporate sins against others and can be legislated. you must be prevented from harming others. what determines harm in our country, however, but be decided with secular defense (as crash said). it can be wholly inspired by scripture, but must demonstrate a secular reasoning and a genuine state interest. this genuine state interest must be compelling enough to overcome individual rights.the criminalization of abortion does not. while the state has a compelling interest in creating more tax-payers, it is not compelling enough to overwhelme the right of a woman to decide whether she will risk her health and her life in the doing. there are other ways to find new tax-payers.open or better managed immigration meets this compelling state interest. it also meets the christian interest of welcoming the stranger in your city. in many cases, it also meets the christian interest of feeding the hungry and clothing the naked, and protecting the widow and orphan. i didn't make these rules up.also, immigration creates more consumers within our economy (micro) and these consumers need goods and services. the demand for goods and services creates jobs. jobs are good and they create disposable income for more workers. immigration creates jobs and strengthens the economy. this provides for another compelling state interest, a fruitful economy.a fruitful economy provides for more taxes. more taxes (and a balanced domestic budget) allows for greater world investment. and this, my dear, is what i'm talking about. investment. if i go to college, i have made an investment in my future. if i take a few million dollars and go to palestine and build schools; decent, safe, and sanitary housing (i now work at a real-estate company lol); and marketplaces and buildings for shops; and invest in local ventures, i have invested in the future of palestine. i have given children a place to learn, i have given people places and ways to work, and i have given people safe places to live.violence comes from a lack of necessities and idle, angry young men who can be easily manipulated by those with political aims. so, you give these people places to work and a safe environemnt to live in and stop treating them like sub-humans just because our dear jewish allies think their god is better and their god gave them this land, and amazingly, you have a functioning, peaceful society.violent political groups can only keep hold as long as people have reason to feel subjected. remove the subjection and express genuine concern and the political group goes somewhere else. Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

My god is that ugly.What percentage of people do you think are goind to strain to read one huge paragraph with no capitalization?I didn't. But then, maybe you did it that way on purpose

oh look. refusing to pay attention to something because it doesn't fit into your little mold. how funny.like capitalization would really make that much difference. you won't actually read it or pay attention to anything it says anyways.Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

.|.. ^.^ ..|.I would have if it was legible.

not likely.now. if you had asked nicely, instead of being a cock, i might have put in some spacing. instead, you'll either have to paste it into word and hit the magical sentence case button or wait for *someone* to suspend me for my lack of capitalization again.

Actually brenn, I gave up after about two lines as well. It was simply unreadable.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion