|
Author
|
Topic: Christianity Today Poll | Christian Leaders and Politics
|
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
|
|
Message 16 of 94 (418524)
08-28-2007 7:28 PM
|
Reply to: Message 8 by ringo
08-28-2007 10:10 AM
|
|
Re: Politicking for Jesus
I don't understand why some professing Christians separate their individual responsibilities from their corporate responsibilities. Whoa, hang on a minute. Are you advocating that heads-of-state, if they are Christian, are supposed to be speaking for you? This is what I don't get. In one instance its a tragedy to speak about religious beliefs in a public forum, but at the same time, its now being demanded that self-professed Christian leaders speak on behalf of an entire nation, despite a considerable number of non-theists also being their constituents. Clearly there is a discrepancy here that needs to be resolved.
If it's wrong for a person to commit murder, isn't it also wrong for a mob to commit murder? Is only the one with bloody hands responsible or should all those present carry their share of responsibility? All who are involved would be culpable, yes. But I'm not sure what it has to do with the topic. Can you expound please?
If it's right for a person to feed the hungry, why isn't it also right for a group of people to feed the hungry? Its perfectly fine. Indeed, that's what a church does.
If one person can help his neighbour clean out the gutters and a group of people can help their neighbour raise a barn, why shouldn't the group's elected government help a neighbouring country to improve its infrastructure? Well, for starters, raising a barn and running a nation are two vastly different concepts. But there is nothing wrong with helping a neighboring countries infrastructure. The problem is that Brenna, and apparently yourself as well, is demanding that the US do it because you think it conforms to the commands of Jesus. But it doesn't. What is given by Jesus is given by believers. Nowhere did Jesus demand that the Roman government conform to Him. Rather, He won people's hearts one convert at a time and instructed His disciples to follow His lead by befriending one person at a time, assessing and addressing their needs. The way you make it sound, He ran around indiscriminately throw money and clothes at people and expected their deepest problems to disappear by doing so. But lets pretend for a minute that you really care about anything like this, not that you're actually saying it because of the ends you think it will bring. The problem is that in one instance you want total Separation of Church and State, but in the next make demands that the US do something along the lines of mass Christianizing. Well, which is it?
"Keeping the heads of nations responsible to their people" is the vilest kind of copout. Vile copout? So who's responsible for you, Ringo, as an Canadian? Is it me, as an American?
It's like complaining that the neighbour's gutters overflow every time it rains instead of helping him prevent it. Historically, whenever the US lends a hand, its construed as the US sticking their noses in the affairs of other nations. But aside from that, you do realize that the US, hands down the most generous nation in the history of MANKIND, can and does give to the less fortunate to help rebuild their infrastructure. If you recall, about a year ago, G-7 officials absolved nearly the entire continent of Africa from their debt. "These countries now owe about $17 billion to international lending institutions such as the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund. Instead of spending $1 billion a year on payments, the African nations could redirect the money toward development projects." - Seattle Times Was this what you were looking for?
Feeding and clothing applies to "the least of these". As long as there is one hungry or naked person left, you haven't done enough. Yes, Ringo, that is a personal conviction, not a foreign policy! But then again, what contributions have you made to society that you can speak with such sanctimony? Kind of reminds me of when Judas acted concerned about feeding the poor, but really He just wanted to pilfer from the money bag.
Do it any way you can. If governments can do anything, they should. And Christians, above all others, should be pushing their governments to behave in a Christian way. But when they do this you resist tooth and nail, remember?
"God creates out of nothing. Wonderful you say. Yes, to be sure, but he does what is still more wonderful: he makes saints out of sinners." -Sren Kierkegaard
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 8 by ringo, posted 08-28-2007 10:10 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 19 by crashfrog, posted 08-28-2007 9:28 PM | | Hyroglyphx has replied | | | Message 29 by ringo, posted 08-29-2007 12:59 AM | | Hyroglyphx has not replied |
|
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
|
Re: Politicking for Jesus
quote:
My issue was that Brenna seemed to think that the scripture she posted was about foreign policy, as if Jesus framed it politically.
no. the verse was meant that if you are a christian you will strive to feed every hungry mouth. it has political implications, i did nothing more than recognize that. It has political implications only if you extrapolate something identifiably Christian with an entire nation. So if we are going to go by this command, then as a collective, we should abide by all the others as well.
christian policy makers should feel that it is their duty to care for the needy. if other nations fail to care for their own, it is our responsibility to succeed. this does not include bombing said governments. Without caring for its own infrastructure, you can't care for anyone else's. The US does care for the needy, insomuch that they do something constructive with it.
but you don't follow native american religion, you follow jesus who said to feed the hungry. did the sermon on the mount result in a fishing lesson or an en masse donation of never-ending food? There is nothing better than giving to a truly needy soul. And this giving should not come from a grumbling heart, but happy heart ready to bless. This is an individual command, not a national one. You are also making it sound so simplistic. Instead of offering platitudes, perhaps you can come up with a proposition on how to go about it, especially since Jesus said that we would always have the poor with us.
your problem is with poorly designed policy, not the intention. great intentions can create horrible policy. but it doesn't have to. it's not my fault or jesus' that idiots run the government. The problem is that no one can rid these things except Jesus. Many have tried, but all have failed.
quote:
If you want to help people, you do it one person at a time through random acts of kindness.
show me where the scripture says help one random person a day. jesus said feed the hungry. all of them. he said welcome and care for the stranger at your door. all of them. Show me in the scriptures where He commands a government to conform to His version of foreign policy, and then show me how you, as one person, can feed every single hungry human being in the world. All of them. This is the problem I see. All of the people who come with the loftiest goals of eradicating poverty all have left a legacy worse than the former. Giving still needs to come from the heart. And you can't force people to do it, even when they begrudgingly concede to. If some people are stingy, then instruct them in a better way. Allow for their God-given conscience to burn an indelible mark in their heart.
the problem is that so many work so hard to pass bullshit moralism while stalling and opposing real commands because "i don't want to support them welfare queens." I feed the needy, because I understand the intimation given by Jesus. You give to the needy rather than enabling people to remain in their sloth. I'm sure you are aware of people who peddle and try to illicit sympathy. When they take your money, that you have generously given to feed them, they go and squander it on non-essential things. When I was in the "City on a Hill" outreach, we gave to the poor. But we didn't just give money, food, blankets, clothes, etc without giving them a chance to help themselves out of their misery. My pastor in Portland had a rule when the homeless came. They would be fed. But they could not come in and be disruptive, drunk, or leave without receiving some financial and spiritual counseling. A fair trade I'd say, and far more the honorable thing than just leaving to face the very same problem the next day.
"God creates out of nothing. Wonderful you say. Yes, to be sure, but he does what is still more wonderful: he makes saints out of sinners." -Sren Kierkegaard
|
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
|
|
|
Message 18 of 94 (418538)
08-28-2007 9:24 PM
|
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
08-28-2007 5:01 PM
|
|
Re: because they are your brothers.
I'm sorry but unless you can show where any of those people did what I outlined, "invested say a BILLION dollars a year per nation in building infrastructure, providing food, health care, education, sanitation and digging water wells in Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Sudan, Ethiopia, Somalia, Eritrea, Yemen, Uganda and Afghanistan" you cannot say that it failed. Further more, if you look at the list I provided you will not see Iraq listed. Look at this way. We have trillions of dollars invested in this nation, and it has not eliminated poverty here. That's because often you can't just throw money at a situation alone. You have to first changed how people view life in order to make some kind of lasting impression.
quote:
The only reason the US is left in Iraq is to build the infrastructure.
Uh, sorry but that is bullshit. That is not the only reason we are still in Iraq where we had no business going in the first place. Then give me some other reasons.
"God creates out of nothing. Wonderful you say. Yes, to be sure, but he does what is still more wonderful: he makes saints out of sinners." -Sren Kierkegaard
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 11 by jar, posted 08-28-2007 5:01 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 21 by jar, posted 08-28-2007 9:30 PM | | Hyroglyphx has replied |
|
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1492 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: 03-20-2003
|
Re: Politicking for Jesus
But when they do this you resist tooth and nail, remember? After all this time, NJ, how can you still not get it? The Bible says "thou shalt not murder." That doesn't mean that atheists want to make murder legal. Can you imagine why this is so, or do you need me to explain it to you, for like the 50th time?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 16 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-28-2007 7:28 PM | | Hyroglyphx has replied |
|
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
|
|
|
Message 20 of 94 (418541)
08-28-2007 9:29 PM
|
Reply to: Message 13 by kuresu
08-28-2007 5:46 PM
|
|
Re: Foreign Policy
Um, brenna isn't saying that our foreign policy should mirror jesus. She's pointing out what part of a "christian" foreign policy would look like. She was saying that policy makers that happen to be Christian should put their money where their mouth is.
Besides, there's a difference between doing what Jesus told you to do and going around shoving your religion down other people's throats and prohibiting the excercise of other religions. Then I guess its a good thing that is not the policy of America.
No paradox, no contradiction even if she was advocating a Jesus based foreign policy, unless she decides to include the command to "spread the gospel" which would be a violation of the separation of church and state. Only then do you have a contradiction. The contradiction appears to be all on your side as you're clearly cherry-picking your cherished ideals while rejecting the others. If we were to invent a foreign policy based off the teachings of Jesus, then we should follow the whole instruction.
"God creates out of nothing. Wonderful you say. Yes, to be sure, but he does what is still more wonderful: he makes saints out of sinners." -Sren Kierkegaard
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 13 by kuresu, posted 08-28-2007 5:46 PM | | kuresu has replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
You have to first changed how people view life
You have to first changed how people view life in order to make some kind of lasting impression. Too funny. No one but you has suggested just throwing money at a problem. You even quoted what I said:
I'm sorry but unless you can show where any of those people did what I outlined, "invested say a BILLION dollars a year per nation in building infrastructure, providing food, health care, education, sanitation and digging water wells in Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Sudan, Ethiopia, Somalia, Eritrea, Yemen, Uganda and Afghanistan" you cannot say that it failed. Further more, if you look at the list I provided you will not see Iraq listed. You might be amazed how having clean water, health care, a job can change how people view life.
Then give me some other reasons. Because George Bush can't figure out a way to get the hell out withou\t everyone realizing how stupid he was to go in in the first place.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 18 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-28-2007 9:24 PM | | Hyroglyphx has replied |
|
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2539 days) Posts: 2544 From: boulder, colorado Joined: 03-24-2006
|
Re: Foreign Policy
Seeing as how I'm not advocating this as my position, I fail to see how it's my contradiction. Unfortunately, the foreign policy has often revolved around us telling other people how to live their lives--including shoving our, or rather your, religion down their throat (anyone remember Mckinely saying we should invade the Philippenes so we could convert them to christianity? Granted, they were mostly catholic to begin with so I'm not sure what he was smoking, or how about framing our current conflict in terms of Christian versus Islam--you know, using the term Jihad?). Gives the idea that to be West you have to be christian. I'm sure I can look up more examples (including recent ones) where administrations have made forcing religion down the throat of the unwilling part of their policies.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 20 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-28-2007 9:29 PM | | Hyroglyphx has not replied |
|
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
|
Re: Foreign Policy
quote:
No, but apparently you believe that it is the sole duty of the United States to feed every man, woman, and child on the planet.
did i say that? i said that it a duty. If you say that its a duty, then its a duty to be followed. And the way you set it up was that America should be giving money to everyone.
it's your own fucking stupid issue that says that if i say something that must be the only thing i think. Am I supposed to summon the powers of mind reading to figure out what other options are swirling about in your head? I'm dealing with the issue you presented and nothing more. If you want to propose another proposition I wouldn't be adverse to it.
quote:
No, of course not. We're supposed to love everyone, even our enemies. This is why we have missionaries.
missionaries don't love people, they tell them about jesus. You can't be a missionary and not love people because its so utterly selfless, daring, and in many cases to the non-believer, down right crazy because of the places God convicts them to go.
i was discussing the goals that christian politicians should be pursuing. stop talking, you're confusing yourself. Then to clarify, what they should be doing is requesting from Congress billions upon billions of dollars to support the infrastructure of all nations. Is that accurate?
quote:
Why do you say that foreign policy for America should mirror Jesus, but also be for the complete Separation of Church and State? That seems a bit paradoxical to me.
this is a discussion of what christian politicians should be doing. try to keep up. Then they should also be trying to outlaw abortion, keep marriage between a man and a women, preach the gospel to the destitute of spirit, etc, on top of feeding and clothing the needy.
"God creates out of nothing. Wonderful you say. Yes, to be sure, but he does what is still more wonderful: he makes saints out of sinners." -Sren Kierkegaard
|
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
|
Re: because they are your brothers.
tell me what army soldiers can build other than bridges, tents, and stacks of bodies. Depends. Are they an engineering battalion?
the first thing our politicians did in iraq was disband their military leaving loads of unemployed, armed young men. the second thing they did was close down local factories and companies they viewed as "inefficient" (mainly because they would be better off buying american products, presumably). tell me what part of that supports the local economy and what part of destroying the local job market builds infrastructure? They didn't disband the military. They only weeded out Saddam loyalists. In fact, they strengthened it and trained, outfitted, and armed the troops more efficiently. As far as shutting down factories is concerned, I know nothing of it so I can't comment on it. As for the strategy of rebuilding Iraq's infrastructure, I have discovered an overview.
"God creates out of nothing. Wonderful you say. Yes, to be sure, but he does what is still more wonderful: he makes saints out of sinners." -Sren Kierkegaard
|
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3953 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: 05-24-2004
|
Re: Politicking for Jesus
It has political implications only if you extrapolate something identifiably Christian with an entire nation. So if we are going to go by this command, then as a collective, we should abide by all the others as well. i said nothing about abiding by collective. i said that these politicians should pursue policy they ought to believe in (and don't). there is nothing wrong with pursuing policy you believe in as long as it isn't unconstitutional and the public supports it. however, it seems the godless liberals are the ones who support caring for the weak and poor and ill.
Without caring for its own infrastructure, you can't care for anyone else's. did i say anything about failing to care for it's own infrastructure? start reading what i actually say.
This is an individual command, not a national one.
and i'm calling individuals on their opposition to caring for the needy.
Instead of offering platitudes, perhaps you can come up with a proposition on how to go about it, especially since Jesus said that we would always have the poor with us. do you really want me to write up a comprehensive domestic and foreign policy plan complete with a budget? really? also, that's a bullshit cop-out. there will always be poor people because there will always be selfish greedy rich assholes. but poor and needy are very different. poor doesn't require starving or having no shelter.
Show me in the scriptures where He commands a government to conform to His version of foreign policy, and then show me how you, as one person, can feed every single hungry human being in the world. All of them. you did read the other half of the bible right? that whole government was supposed to be following god's every command. and again, do you really want me to produce a complete domestic and foreign policy plan with full budget?
I feed the needy, because I understand the intimation given by Jesus. You give to the needy rather than enabling people to remain in their sloth. I'm sure you are aware of people who peddle and try to illicit sympathy. When they take your money, that you have generously given to feed them, they go and squander it on non-essential things. i know we've gone over a million times that the "welfare queen" is a myth with no support whatsoever. further, it is not your place to judge these people and prevent really needy people from receiving aid because there might be jerks out there. let god judge the thieves, or--here's a though--fucking arrest them.
But we didn't just give money, food, blankets, clothes, etc without giving them a chance to help themselves out of their misery. did i suggest that you keep people in poverty and dependent on your aid? you keep inventing your own arguments. i distinctly recall suggesting that the biggest errors we made in iraq were destroying jobs.
My pastor in Portland had a rule when the homeless came. They would be fed. But they could not come in and be disruptive, drunk, or leave without receiving some financial and spiritual counseling. A fair trade I'd say, and far more the honorable thing than just leaving to face the very same problem the next day. did jesus say give, but only if they consent to being proselytized?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 17 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-28-2007 8:48 PM | | Hyroglyphx has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 33 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-29-2007 8:15 PM | | macaroniandcheese has replied |
|
macaroniandcheese
Suspended Member (Idle past 3953 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: 05-24-2004
|
Re: Foreign Policy
If you say that its a duty, then its a duty to be followed. And the way you set it up was that America should be giving money to everyone. yes, but you said "sole duty". we have lots of other duties and others have lots of duties. congratulations on being short-sighted and unable to read. and i said care for the needy, yes, all the needy. this is much more than money.
Am I supposed to summon the powers of mind reading to figure out what other options are swirling about in your head? I'm dealing with the issue you presented and nothing more. If you want to propose another proposition I wouldn't be adverse to it. you won't even read the proposition i'm presenting. why the hell would i give you another one to misunderstand?
You can't be a missionary and not love people because its so utterly selfless, daring, and in many cases to the non-believer, down right crazy because of the places God convicts them to go. their purpose is conversion, not care. if they happen to care, great. that is not their purpose.
Then to clarify, what they should be doing is requesting from Congress billions upon billions of dollars to support the infrastructure of all nations. Is that accurate? multitudes of our domestic and national security problems are directly related to the failures we've made in caring for other nations. they are in need. we should help them.
Then they should also be trying to outlaw abortion, keep marriage between a man and a women, preach the gospel to the destitute of spirit, etc, on top of feeding and clothing the needy. tell me where jesus talks about abortion. also, should they be outlawing lobster? should they shut down barber shops? why aren't they voting to outlaw profit since jesus commanded us that we cannot follow him unless we have sold all we own? but they already try to do the things you claim. they fail to do the things jesus preached so adamantly about and spent his life doing. he didn't spend his life picketing outside abortion clinics, he spent his life healing and feeding and caring for free. FREE. FUCKING FREE.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 23 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-28-2007 9:46 PM | | Hyroglyphx has not replied |
|
macaroniandcheese
Suspended Member (Idle past 3953 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: 05-24-2004
|
Re: because they are your brothers.
They didn't disband the military. They only weeded out Saddam loyalists. In fact, they strengthened it and trained, outfitted, and armed the troops more efficiently. no. they first disbanded the military. may 2003. http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A63423-2003Nov19Violence blamed on US decision to disband Iraq army | World news | The Guardianhttp://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0218-06.htmMinistry of Defensehttp://www.defensetech.org/archives/002921.htmlhttp://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/jun2004/a061404e.html do you want more? where do you get your news from?
As far as shutting down factories is concerned, I know nothing of it so I can't comment on it. Redirecting...Oops! We can't find the page you were looking for! | Military.com'Made in Iraq' labels headed for USA - USATODAY.com[link][link] really. just google search random phrases next time. they're only just now reopening them. you should consider reading some of the recent books out about iraq which don't agree with your sunny disposition. it's amazing what the facts are.
As for the strategy of rebuilding Iraq's infrastructure, I have discovered an overview. thanks. i'll read it. Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 24 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-28-2007 11:11 PM | | Hyroglyphx has not replied |
|
macaroniandcheese
Suspended Member (Idle past 3953 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: 05-24-2004
|
Re: Foreign Policy
She was saying that policy makers that happen to be Christian should put their money where their mouth is. see. you get it here, but you fail to get it when you're talking to me.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 20 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-28-2007 9:29 PM | | Hyroglyphx has not replied |
|
ringo
Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
|
Re: Politicking for Jesus
nemesis_juggernaut writes: Are you advocating that heads-of-state, if they are Christian, are supposed to be speaking for you? Have you ever heard of the form of government called "democracy"? The job of the head of state is to speak for the people. And it doesn't even matter if the head of state is a Christian. Christian citizens should be speaking out for their elected representatives to adopt a Christian agenda of aid to poorer people and nations. The discrepancy is in the moral values of professing Christians. They don't practice what they preach.
quote:
If it's right for a person to feed the hungry, why isn't it also right for a group of people to feed the hungry?
Its perfectly fine. Indeed, that's what a church does. Why do you extend the group to a church but not to the state?
What is given by Jesus is given by believers. Nonsense. Jesus was speaking general principles for everybody. Haven't you heard of the Good Samaritan? Jesus wanted "believers" to improve their performance to match that of unbelievers.
Nowhere did Jesus demand that the Roman government conform to Him. The Roman government was not a democracy. Living in a democratic society puts higher responsibilities on us.
He won people's hearts one convert at a time and instructed His disciples to follow His lead by befriending one person at a time, assessing and addressing their needs. Also nonsense, of course. Have you ever heard of the Bible? Jesus spoke to multitudes at a time - and there is no mention of who was a "believer" and who was not.
The problem is that in one instance you want total Separation of Church and State.... Where the @#$% are you getting that?
So who's responsible for you, Ringo, as an Canadian? Is it me, as an American? Of course you are. Have you ever heard of the Bible? When Cain asked God, "Am I my brother's keeper?" the implicit answer was "Yes!" We're all responsible for each other. That's what Jesus was trying to get across.
... you do realize that the US, hands down the most generous nation in the history of MANKIND.... Bullshit.
If you recall, about a year ago, G-7 officials absolved nearly the entire continent of Africa from their debt.
[...]
Was this what you were looking for? Taking one small step like that is like feeding one of the five thousand. Jesus didn't stop there. Why do you?
Yes, Ringo, that is a personal conviction, not a foreign policy! In a democracy, foreign policy is a personal conviction.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 16 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-28-2007 7:28 PM | | Hyroglyphx has not replied |
|
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
|
|
|
Message 30 of 94 (418650)
08-29-2007 4:42 PM
|
Reply to: Message 19 by crashfrog
08-28-2007 9:28 PM
|
|
Re: Politicking for Jesus
quote:
But when they do this you resist tooth and nail, remember?
After all this time, NJ, how can you still not get it? The Bible says "thou shalt not murder." That doesn't mean that atheists want to make murder legal. Can you imagine why this is so, or do you need me to explain it to you, for like the 50th time? Apparently, because I have no idea what you're even talking about.
"God creates out of nothing. Wonderful you say. Yes, to be sure, but he does what is still more wonderful: he makes saints out of sinners." -Sren Kierkegaard
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 19 by crashfrog, posted 08-28-2007 9:28 PM | | crashfrog has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 38 by crashfrog, posted 08-30-2007 9:29 AM | | Hyroglyphx has not replied |
|
™ Version 4.2