Against the LAW?

More irony?I wasn't aware that British law prohibited certain people from participating in beauty contests ...BBC NEWS | UK | England | Nottinghamshire | Anger over Muslim beauty entrant Because she is muslim? but ...
BBC NEWS | UK | England | First Muslim Miss England crowned Why is one asked to withdraw and not the other? Or is this just another double standard and another blatant attempt to impose a religious standard on other people? Or were they playing favorites and using religion as an excuse?Personally I don't find much reason for beauty contests, and that this: Is a better measure of a person than appearance in a bathing suit.Rather than a beauty contest, why not an Ambassador to the World contest: pick someone who is good at bringing people together?Something positive that can help overcome such narrow-minded insular opinions, such as those of Dr Hashim Sulaiman, that try to harass and divide people.Ironic that one is from Afghanistan and the other is from Iraq eh?Enjoy.

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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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RAZD mentions reports that participation in a beauty contest is against the law. Another recent post talks of disobeying the law of gravity.What will be next law to be broken?

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Compassionate conservatism - bringing you a kinder, gentler torture chamber

thermodynamics?isn't that what they we break with evolution?

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The law of averages

The infield fly law?Oh, my bad, that's just a theory.

yeah, until it becomes massively validated by evidence it is just a rule

I am not familiar with English laws, but would it be possible for one of the contestants to sue Dr Hashim Sulaiman or the Islamic Institute for racial discrimination?

See sig.

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Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

It seems both girls were asked to step down - the BBC reporting looks to be a little sloppy.

I'm not a big fan of beauty contests, but that's usually because I don't like the uniform "look" people try for, as well as all the makeup contestants tend to wear. Yet I do understand why they exist. It's a fun, lighthearted thing to do which is uplifting in that it honors beauty, an inate esthetic quality which produces feelings of happiness and joy.Maybe one person gets crowned, but really all of the people on the stage are admired and bring pleasure to those who watch.This is why I found it somewhat ironic for someone I believe to be an atheist and so unbound by antibody moral dogma to react by first chastising a a guy from an Islamic institute who calls for girls not to enter such contests, and then goes on to say... 1) No one said a beauty contest is the measure of a person. A beauty contest measures beauty, that's it. What's wrong with measuring a single quality in an event? Why is it that people who heckle beauty contests for measuring one quality, do not chastise all other forms of tests and prizes for not including all qualities which make up a person... perhaps the Nobel prize should include a swimsuit competition?2) What does intellect or such things as being able to speak many languages have to do with measuring a person? I've known really shitty people that are smart and speak many languages. They are shitty in all of them.3) It appears then that you agree with Dr Sulaiman's general appraisal, even if not with his underlying reasons or his lack of uniformity in application. I started reading this post thinking you were criticizing Islamic condemnation of beauty. Only by the end I find you arguing that we really should deny physical beauty, or assessing that characteristic of people, and replace it with contests that would appeal to Sulaiman. Now why would I want to do that? Why should anyone want to do that? It almost smacks of the ultra right who claimed we should limit sexual activity in the US because that pisses of Islamic extremists. What's wrong with pissing off Islamic extremists when we do what we want?Up with beauty contests, and hurrah for the confident and courageous Islamic women who fight the catcalls of religious fanatics and prudes in order to enter and win them!In reality they are the ones changing Islam from the inside and my guess is they may carry more weight in a sarong than Sulaiman in a press release. At least that would be my hope.Edited by holmes, : switcheeEdited by holmes, : trimmeeEdited by holmes, : tee

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holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

Had to dig through further links from yours to find it:Beauty queen enters Islamophobia debate | UK news | The Guardian

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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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Deist. ... applying a more logical more universal code applicable to each participant? (and we've had this discussion already eh?) Being "unbound by antibody moral dogma" does not mean (correct me if I'm wrong) being void of moral considerations of the ways people should be treated. What's being judged is not beauty but conformance eh?Beauty is subjective, so no two opinons will totally agree, although there may be significant general concordance. Some gentlemen prefer blondes eh? And a high number of shitty "beautiful" people as well. But at least with language ability you have a higher chance of communication, whether that is being shitty or being beautiful in mind and spirit. Not really. I see no reason to participate in being an audience to beauty contests (as apparently neither do you) as the results don't appeal to me - except in a most superficial way - and that does what appeal to me is something deeper that is missing. Dr. Sulaiman may agree with me, but that doesn't mean I agree with him on telling people what they should and should not do. If Dr. Sulaiman had made a statement more in line with mine then I would tend to agree with that, but he didn't, he applied a biased arbitrary dogmatic standard (whether expressed against one or both is irrelevent to the bias expressed). If all it takes is a shallow display of superficial beauty to change islam then we have nothing to worry about. Personally I think treating people (and other cultures and nations) with respect and dignity will go further, and that includes more than just surface attributes and artificial standards.Enjoy.

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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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quote:

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If all it takes is a shallow display of superficial beauty to change islam then we have nothing to worry about. Personally I think treating people (and other cultures and nations) with respect and dignity will go further, and that includes more than just surface attributes and artificial standards.

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You have not been exposed to muslims or a study of them, that much is clear.First idea! What if they have no clue what your interpretation of respect and dignity is?Second idea! I ask this question because they do not.Here's a good start for you: NinjaHoki > Daftar 12 Situs Judi Slot Online Terpercaya di 2022A look at a muslim who served as an example to millions of other muslims:
Dr. Homa Darabi Foundation (Amsterdam)And so on: http://www.isralert.com/archives/2005/03/deceit_thy_name.phpA cursory perusal of this material, and you will understand why logic as we practice it, is as strange to them as is our knowledge that the sun does not set in a puddle of mud and that a man did not come from a drop of semen lodged between his ribs.Enjoy!

That's interesting. I hadn't realized you actually were a deist. I guess I thought it was somewhat of a tongue in cheek thing. If we had this discussion I must admit I don't remember it. As it is I'm not sure what a more logical more universal code has to do with beauty contests, nor moral considerations of ways people should be treated. Mmmmmmm, that will depend on the contest. I was trying to get at more of what the women do at many of the contests, which seems to me to appeal to the masses by assuming some sort of static popular look for the time. That is not the case for all beauty contests, and it doesn't really predict the winner.I should note that I really don't like contests of any nature. I'm still a sucker for the academy awards, but even that I realize is a bit silly. Mind candy.If I watch any they are for fun and more to appreciate everyone having tried their best. There are certainly some beauty contests which are fun, especially if one is right there.I absolutely agree with your point that beauty is subjective, with any contest results being more or less a statement about what a general averaging of preference might be. To my mind there is no such thing as more superficial or deeper when discussing human characteristics. One can say there is genetic, or inherent, vs trained. Or maybe limited vs widely applicable?In any case contests themselves are superficial in their description of a person no matter what they measure. That's why they all have to be taken for what they are... fun. Its entertainment. A way to have fun by allowing people to compete based on some arbitrary characteristic. While I get your position actually differs from his, I was getting at an underlying similarity, in order to riff on it. That only because you went on to knock something which is really just entertainment, and in doing so were criticizing the same women that the Dr was.In this case I'd have to ask, in a serious sense, what is the difference between his standards and what you discussed? The source might be different, and the way he might apply it is different (which is why your positions are different), it looks to me like the standards are pretty close. See, I think he would agree with that statement. Its about respect and dignity, with beauty contests considered as not treating people in that way. To which I would aks, why not?What's undignified and disrespectful to look at visual esthetic qualities of the human body and have a contest to award excellence by the standards of whatever group that throws the contest? Is it undignified and disrespectful to flowers, or flowerbeds to look at them and grant awards for their beauty?This is my problem I guess. I see physical beauty, even if a subjective quality, as something which is respectful and dignified. It can be inherent as well as trained (a skill).And yes, actually I do think things like women entering beauty contests will help pull Islam away from militant fundamentalist doctrines. If the moderates enjoy such things then they will stand in opposition to the likes of hard Islamic dress or behavioral codes, which box people in. I might point out that if they wouldn't change Islam, its unlikely Dr Sulaiman would have been so worried about them in the first place.

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holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

But I wasn't saying they (any) should pull out of it - it is (after all) their choice to be a part of the pagent. And no, I wasn't criticising them, just saying the contest is relatively uninteresting to me. She'll have her "15 minutes of fame" plus some extra. The question is what she will do with it.How many have amounted to much?How many pagent winners stand out in memory?Heather Whitestone?
http://pageantcenter.com/pageant_history.html After all, so many other winners have been effective at reshaping the world eh?Or is their ability to participate a sign that this reshaping is happening and they are benefiting from it?Enjoy.

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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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to share.