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Author Topic:   Separation of Church and State
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 286 of 305 (328371)
07-02-2006 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by riVeRraT
07-02-2006 10:38 PM


Re: If you had kids,..... - Like ME
They can't choose the way it is now.
So you're in favor of forcing children to be exposed in school to religions that their parent's might not approve of?
That is entirely different from choosing Jesus in your heart. IT must be a FREE choice.
Not the point. The point is freedom of religion, which is also freedom from religion, why should my tax dollars go to exposing my children to a religion that is a lie?

Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by riVeRraT, posted 07-02-2006 10:38 PM riVeRraT has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 287 of 305 (328372)
07-02-2006 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by RAZD
07-02-2006 2:51 PM


Re: We all have kids. They go to school to learn ...
Can you tell me how it pertains to education?
To reach people with the gospel of Jesus Christ which an ordinary church meeting or event cannot.
Schools are NOT churches, and are NOT places to preach YOUR religion, no matter WHAT it is.
Yes, it is, it is a place of learning. I am not against all religions coming to the schools and teaching.
So here you are, complaining about people "taking god out of school" etcetera, when it is YOU trying to IMPOSE it on others REGARDLESS of THEIR beliefs. You have a arrogant unmitigated gall if you want my personal opinion.
/\
So you are blocked from instigating such an ILLEGAL and IMMORAL and UNCONSTITUTIONAL imposition on PUBLIC schools, and YOU complain.
I am not imposing any specific religion, and not forcing it on anyone. IT is perfectly fine to allow kids a choice.
Why is it I have no problem letting my kids hear about atheism, or whatever. It's their choice, and they need to know about their choices, and not from some atheistic gay liberal teacher. If you don't like that then too bad.
I have been there in the schools, and it seems other thoughts other than the ones I would like to have my kids follow, are being imposed on them. So which one os right RAZD?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by RAZD, posted 07-02-2006 2:51 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by RAZD, posted 07-03-2006 7:23 AM riVeRraT has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 288 of 305 (328374)
07-02-2006 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by RAZD
07-02-2006 3:09 PM


Re: You sure got gall.
ore to the point, what have YOU - riVeRraT - done to educate the kids in your school about other religions:
IT is not my job to teach kids about something I am not qualified to teach. IT is my job to allow it.
Or are you just another biased closed minded political activist christian hypocrite?
Get a life, have you not learned anythign ahbout me yet?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by RAZD, posted 07-02-2006 3:09 PM RAZD has not replied

Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3426 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 289 of 305 (328376)
07-02-2006 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by riVeRraT
07-02-2006 10:44 PM


Re: To clear things up a bit...
Out of respect for the 90% of the people in this country who helped build this country, who believe this to be true, we can leave it.
IT doesn't say, you have to believe this to be part of our society, it's just the ten commandments, and part of our history. To many times people are trying to erase God from our history.
Ya know, museums are a great place to display historical documents and artifacts.
A courthouse is no place to display the ten commandments unless we actually use them as our laws and while there are laws against killing, stealing and some forms of lying those are not solely the property of Christianity, Judaism or Islam. The other commandments have no place in a courthouse unless we live in a theocracy and actually have laws against graven images, adultery or having other gods.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by riVeRraT, posted 07-02-2006 10:44 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by riVeRraT, posted 07-03-2006 12:10 AM Jaderis has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 290 of 305 (328379)
07-03-2006 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 289 by Jaderis
07-02-2006 11:03 PM


Re: To clear things up a bit...
Ya know, museums are a great place to display historical documents and artifacts.
And SOHO is a great place to meet gay people, so what?
A courthouse is no place to display the ten commandments unless we actually use them as our laws
There are many things displayed on the walls of Justice in Washington DC that are not our laws.
The other commandments have no place in a courthouse unless we live in a theocracy and actually have laws against graven images, adultery or having other gods.
The Left doesn’t want us to worship God and follow His commandments, but they would like us to worship the gods of ultra-tolerance on the graven altar of moral relativism.
Are you afraid everyone will all of a sudden become Christian because the ten commandments are on the walls of the court houses, after being there for so long?
A large majority of th enation, some 90% believe in the ten commandments, get over it. No one is forcing you to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Jaderis, posted 07-02-2006 11:03 PM Jaderis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by nwr, posted 07-03-2006 12:27 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 294 by Jaderis, posted 07-03-2006 2:05 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 295 by ramoss, posted 07-03-2006 6:20 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 303 by nator, posted 07-03-2006 8:06 AM riVeRraT has not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 291 of 305 (328383)
07-03-2006 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by riVeRraT
07-03-2006 12:10 AM


Re: To clear things up a bit...
The Left doesn’t want us to worship God and follow His commandments, but they would like us to worship the gods of ultra-tolerance on the graven altar of moral relativism.
That is false, and totally dishonest. The majority of those on the left are Christians. What they don't want, is to have the government dictate how you should worship.
Now how about you stop these dishonest assertions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by riVeRraT, posted 07-03-2006 12:10 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by riVeRraT, posted 07-03-2006 1:08 AM nwr has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 292 of 305 (328389)
07-03-2006 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by nwr
07-03-2006 12:27 AM


Re: To clear things up a bit...
What they don't want, is to have the government dictate how you should worship.
By removing God from our society, and our history?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by nwr, posted 07-03-2006 12:27 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by nwr, posted 07-03-2006 1:21 AM riVeRraT has not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 293 of 305 (328393)
07-03-2006 1:21 AM
Reply to: Message 292 by riVeRraT
07-03-2006 1:08 AM


Re: To clear things up a bit...
By removing God from our society, and our history?
Nobody is removing God from our society, or from our history.
You have been listening to far too much right wing propoganda, and you have been believing it without checking.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by riVeRraT, posted 07-03-2006 1:08 AM riVeRraT has not replied

Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3426 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 294 of 305 (328395)
07-03-2006 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by riVeRraT
07-03-2006 12:10 AM


Re: To clear things up a bit...
And SOHO is a great place to meet gay people, so what?
Actually SOHO isn't a great place to meet gay people, but I am confused as to how this applies to what I said...
There are many things displayed on the walls of Justice in Washington DC that are not our laws
I'm not sure which examples you are speaking of, but I suspect that they are documents from which we have derived our laws from. Like I said, the ten commandments mention a couple of things that are akin to laws that America imposes, but the rest are specific religious commandments that have nothing to do with our laws and therefore have no place in a courthouse.
The Left doesn’t want us to worship God and follow His commandments, but they would like us to worship the gods of ultra-tolerance on the graven altar of moral relativism.
Funny...I didn't get that memo.
Are you afraid everyone will all of a sudden become Christian because the ten commandments are on the walls of the court houses, after being there for so long?
I'm not afraid of anyone becoming Christian. That has no bearing on my life in and of itself. I just don't think that a religious text has any place in a court of law. You have every right to believe whatever you want to and so do I. Posting or not posting the ten commandments has no bearing on your faith, but it does constitute government establishment of religion. If you would argue and say it is just an historical document, why not display the Code of Hammurabi or Draco's codes or any other single set of laws from which we may have derived some of our laws from? Note that no other religious group is trying to erect a copy of their religious law in the courts.
As for the last part of the sentence, who cares how long it has been there? If it is unconstitutional it has no place there no matter if it could take us 1000 years to realize that. Like many others have said on this thread, just because something was done in the past doesn't make it right.
A large majority of th enation, some 90% believe in the ten commandments, get over it. No one is forcing you to.
Not yet...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by riVeRraT, posted 07-03-2006 12:10 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by riVeRraT, posted 07-03-2006 6:42 AM Jaderis has not replied

ramoss
Member (Idle past 613 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 295 of 305 (328440)
07-03-2006 6:20 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by riVeRraT
07-03-2006 12:10 AM


Re: To clear things up a bit...
You know, that is a rather strawman arguement. I know many liberal 'leftist' Christians. I know many liberal Jews. I know a few liberal muslims.
And I also know a few very conservative atheists.
You are trying to equate the 'liberal' philosphy as 'godless', which is a lie. That is something you should be aware of.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by riVeRraT, posted 07-03-2006 12:10 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by riVeRraT, posted 07-03-2006 6:44 AM ramoss has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 296 of 305 (328445)
07-03-2006 6:42 AM
Reply to: Message 294 by Jaderis
07-03-2006 2:05 AM


Re: To clear things up a bit...
I'm not sure which examples you are speaking of, but I suspect that they are documents from which we have derived our laws from. Like I said, the ten commandments mention a couple of things that are akin to laws that America imposes, but the rest are specific religious commandments that have nothing to do with our laws and therefore have no place in a courthouse.
That pretty much sums it up. It's ok for those other things to be there, but not the commandments?
Give me a break.
osting or not posting the ten commandments has no bearing on your faith, but it does constitute government establishment of religion
That sentence is in total condradiction with itself.
Listen, you don't see me fighting to remove Confucius, or Solon from the Supreme court building, even though they are in direct contradiction with the ten commandments. IT is what it is, and it is who and what we are. It is part of our history. I embrace all religions, and atheism. I don't think our governement is promoting any of it, if there is a statue of the ten commandments, or a statue of Tom Sawyer, or Santa Claus.
We are not promoting religion when we have paid rabbis or paid preists and ministers. It is clear to me that I live in a country where my religion is a free choice, and a statue isn't going to change that.
I don't think that Christian prayer specifically is what we need on schools, but a time for prayer in the morning, or like someone else said "a moment of silence" is a good thing. Also a fair chance at knowing about all the religions in school is fine with me also. The schools can have disclaimers and get away with it, why not? TV shows do it all the time. Too many kids come out of school knowing all the bad stuff about religion, but not the good stuff.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by Jaderis, posted 07-03-2006 2:05 AM Jaderis has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 297 of 305 (328446)
07-03-2006 6:44 AM
Reply to: Message 295 by ramoss
07-03-2006 6:20 AM


Re: To clear things up a bit...
The conservative athiests you know, wish to impose moral relativism on the country?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by ramoss, posted 07-03-2006 6:20 AM ramoss has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by nwr, posted 07-03-2006 7:48 AM riVeRraT has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1406 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 298 of 305 (328457)
07-03-2006 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 287 by riVeRraT
07-02-2006 10:50 PM


Re: We all have kids. They go to school to learn ...
Can you tell me how it pertains to education?
To reach people with the gospel of Jesus Christ which an ordinary church meeting or event cannot.
School is not the place to teach religion period end argument.
That is your church and YOUR job to do. Allowing it in public school IS ESTABLISHING a religion.
Message 288
ore to the point, what have YOU - riVeRraT - done to educate the kids in your school about other religions:
IT is not my job to teach kids about something I am not qualified to teach. IT is my job to allow it.
Cop-out. YOU brought one religion into school and then wash your hands of providing the rest of the educational experience.
Or are you just another biased closed minded political activist christian hypocrite?
Get a life, have you not learned anythign ahbout me yet?
I thought I had, which is why I am more appalled at this behavior from you than I would be from others.
You have demonstrated yourself to be just another biased closed minded political activist christian hypocrite.
You come on here crying about being SO restricted and SO put down in your kid's schools, when the truth is that YOU are trying to subvert the system, the truth is that YOU want to expose kids in public school to ONE and ONLY ONE religion, the truth is that YOU are trying to impose one religion on others.
Get a life? I've got one, it is called american, where we have freedom for all different religious views from atheism to completely irrational fundyisms, but NO-ONE has the 'freedom' to impose their religious views on others.
You want sunday school not public school.
Enjoy.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : added more rant

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by riVeRraT, posted 07-02-2006 10:50 PM riVeRraT has not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 299 of 305 (328461)
07-03-2006 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 297 by riVeRraT
07-03-2006 6:44 AM


Re: To clear things up a bit...
The conservative athiests you know, wish to impose moral relativism on the country?
In my experience, the people who are trying hardest to impose their relative morality on society are fundamentalist Christians.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by riVeRraT, posted 07-03-2006 6:44 AM riVeRraT has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 300 of 305 (328462)
07-03-2006 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by riVeRraT
07-02-2006 10:35 PM


Re: It's up to the parents
quote:
I will teach my kids their faith, even if the schools omit it
Exactly.
That is exactly how it is supposed to work.
YOU teach YOUR children whatever stripe of religion you want.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by riVeRraT, posted 07-02-2006 10:35 PM riVeRraT has not replied

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