Separation of Church and State

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Not promotion, education of. The school can stand there and say, we are not promoting this, we are just showing what it is. Choosing to follow Jesus is a free choice, and would never be forced on anyone.

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So the Satanists and the Wiccans could come into the schools and show all the kids what it is, right?The kids could have free choice to follow Satan or The Goddess, right?

I'm sorry, you must have missed my posts to you, rat.They can be found at: Message #249, Message #250Message #251

In what way are

• Thou shalt have no other gods before me
• Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
• Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain
• Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

doing anything but representing one particular God and religion? This claim is somewhat disingenuous as the Abrahmaic religions (which are the only ones you can claim they represent) are so closely related.

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Oops! Wrong Planet

I'm sorry riVeRraT, but you just don't see how absolutely wrong you are. In other words you were directly involved in an activist christian political movement whose express purpose is to impose a christian bias on your public funded school systemThe Power Team 2.0 That's from their website "vision" statement. Can you tell me how it pertains to education? Schools are NOT churches, and are NOT places to preach YOUR religion, no matter WHAT it is.So here you are, complaining about people "taking god out of school" etcetera, when it is YOU trying to IMPOSE it on others REGARDLESS of THEIR beliefs. You have a arrogant unmitigated gall if you want my personal opinion.So you are blocked from instigating such an ILLEGAL and IMMORAL and UNCONSTITUTIONAL imposition on PUBLIC schools, and YOU complain.Well BOO eF'in HOO.Now get out of my constitution. In other words, everyone that doesn't pander to your pet religious discrimiination du jour?Enjoy.

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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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A rose by any other name ...Stop equivocating.

More to the point, what have YOU - riVeRraT - done to educate the kids in your school about other religions: what have YOU done to "just showing what" {they are}, as it does NOT promote other religions but just educates people on them right?Or are you just another biased closed minded political activist christian hypocrite?If you have not provided any other relibious "education" then you ARE promoting ONE religion over all others. YOU are violating the principal of separation - YOU are wrong.Enjoy.

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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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This is really a non-answer since you did not answer question 1. Admittedly a vague question. It would have been better to ask: "What specific things is this Athiest cult doing that would constitute removing God from this nation?" A follow-up would be a request to provide evidentiary support for your point of view on this. Sounds like some school officials misinterpreting the law in this case. This could be intentional or unintentional but they appear to be actually violating your children's religious rights. Check here for an example.

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The Frenchtown Elementary School student...wanted to sing the song "Awesome God" in a voluntary, after-school talent show. School officials refused to allow the student to sing her song, saying it would give the impression that the school favored religion...
..."There is a distinction between religious expression initiated or endorsed by school personnel, and speech initiated by individual students," said ACLU of New Jersey cooperating attorney Jennifer Klear of Drinker, Biddle & Reath in New York. "The Constitution protects a student's individual right to express herself, including religious expression."

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Actually, that would be a wrong action, from your point of view. A reason is the motivation behind the action. I really would like to understand what it is that you are inscenced about but I need clearer statements on your part in order to do so. I would say that the separation of church and state means that the government cannot support or appear to support any religious point of view. It cannot enact any legislation that provides preferential support for any religious organization based solely on that organization's religious tenents. The fact that we have legal precedent of the government doing just that does not provide the right for it to continue down that path in violation of our constitution. If you think the government supports a particular religious point of view please provide examples of such along with an explanation of exactly how this legislation/ruling supports that particular point of view.As a Christian, I would not want the government to endorse Satanism over Christianity. Therefore, I cannot support their endorsing Christianity, especially only certain sects, over Satanism. Does this answer go with the question? Even if I read the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution, I would still have no idea of what you think are the "right reasons" to fight for separation of church and state.

I don't know where you live, but I grew up in Palm Beach County, Florida and was in the school choir. We sang songs like "Ave Maria" and "God Bless America" and no one batted an eyelash. Everyone understood that the choir director was not trying to preach but presenting beautiful songs. I was raised without religion (but not raised to be against it, my parents just wanted me to figure it all out for myself without being indoctrinated before I was able to ask the right questions) and neither my parents nor I had any problem singing these songs. I highly doubt that your experience in your school district is representative of the whole nation. Oooh goodie!!! I always wanted to be in an underground cult and now you're telling me that I'm already in one. Wow! Thanks! Well, the rest of us also live in the real world and do not see what you are seeing. What exactly has the alleged removal of God from schools done? How exactly was God removed? Was s/he carted away in handcuffs?Like I said before, I grew up in a fairly liberal area (a blue county if you will) and attended a large urban high school and a large suburban junior high with a very diverse student body at both and I never once witnessed any kind of discrimination against the Christian kids. I did, however, see kids holding hands around the flagpole in prayer before the first bell, praying over their lunches, discussing religion and God in history and government classes, opting out of sex-ed and given alternate assignments (similar to when someone objects to dissection in biology), wearing religious t-shirts, reading their bibles during the required reading time we had IIRC once a month, being accomodated after school for their christian clubs and so on. Remember, this is a diverse, majority liberal area with sizeable populations of non-Christian religions. I attended school through 1995 and I have a little sister and a niece and nephew still in school there right now and the atmosphere is the same. Kids are allowed to pray and "dare to mention God" often in the right setting and time. So many school even have a "Moment of Silence" in which the student can think about whatever s/he pleases including prayer. The announcer doesn't specify prayer, but it isn't disallowed. Granted, some schools may go overboard in their paranoia, but those few instances should not be used to gauge the climate over the whole country and that is exactly what all the fundamentalists are doing. ????? No one is saying you or anyone should be "Godless." The founding fathers knew the power of religion and knew that it was best to keep the state from interfering in the church and vice versa. No one then or now is trying to force everyone to be an atheist. That's just absurd. If you believe in your God then no one can take that away from you. No one is stopping anyone from praying or believing. However, like any other right we have in this country, the line is drawn when you try to impose your will on others. When I was in first grade (in Virginia Beach, not S.Fla, we moved the next year) my teacher had us recite a prayer of thanks before we left the classroom for lunch. Our parents were told by us and she was fired. I was too young to remember if there was any sort of controversy, but I'm sure that raised the ire of some Christians and represented to them the "Godlessness" of the schools, but she crossed that line. She made us learn the prayer and recite it and she punished anyone who didn't (or at least didn't mouth the words). That is what we mean by "forced prayer" and that is what the Supreme Court ruled against. Not private prayer. Stop trying to pretend that there isn't a difference. Exactly! So what is the argument?

That is absolutely what it says. That is a blatant lie.
It says who we are a s a nation, and why. It says what we stand for, what we fight for, and why. If you don't want to accpet that God is part of our nation, and our founding fathers, that is your freedom. Yes, it does. We elect our government. Because it is religion specific. You must understand something about me. I go to church, I am a leader in my church, but I really hate religion. Religion and God are 2 different things. Our nation should not be religion specific, but we should also not be Godless. We should also be allowed to be atheist (if there is such a thing). But atheism is not what we as a mjority stand for, or was it the intentions of our founding fathers. We escaped religious persecution, not God.

*BUZZER* Wrong!! Capital "G" God or even just saying "god" all by itself without any clarifying statements specifically denotes the Abrahamic God in the minds of most people so your statement is only true pertaining to the Christian, Jewish and Muslim God (and all their offshoots). So the statements "In God We Trust" or "Under God" only pertain to this particular God. I dare you to ask anyone from any other religion if they feel that those phrases refer to their god(s) or goddess(es). There is no way to include all gods with one simple word when used in these contexts unless we make something up. And even then, the atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, Taoists, etc who do not have or believe in a personal god would not be included. But, the people harping on about bringing God back to America don't really want to include other gods in their America so I suspect that this little problem doesn't bother them much.

This is my country just as much as an atheist. I havge no problem if the schools teach about both. I pay a huge amount of school taxes, and our schools are fairly decent. I will teach my kids their faith, even if the schools omit it, and are Godless for the momment.

Yes, I would be in favor of that. If Jesus Christ is truth, then the truth will prevail.

They can't choose the way it is now. See my previous reply. That is entirely different from choosing Jesus in your heart. IT must be a FREE choice.

IT seems that it is ok for you to make multiple replies, but not ok for me, as I am the one who always recieves a warning about multiple replies. If you wish to make multiple replies, try reading them all, and then condensing into one post, so it won't seem as if your flying off the handle so much, and we don't waste forum space. It makes for much nicer conversation.{I think he might have a valid point there Schraf. Two of those messages are replies to the same RR message. To all, how about trying for fewer but better messages? And try not to pile on as much. - Adminnemooseus}Edited by Adminnemooseus, : See above.

Out of respect for the 90% of the people in this country who helped build this country, who believe this to be true, we can leave it.IT doesn't say, you have to believe this to be part of our society, it's just the ten commandments, and part of our history. To many times people are trying to erase God from our history.