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Author Topic:   Separation of Church and State
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 226 of 305 (327412)
06-29-2006 6:49 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by riVeRraT
06-29-2006 6:27 AM


quote:
When we took prayer out of the schools, we made atheism a religion, and a national one at that.
OK, rat.
Let's say that we put state-bankrolled prayer back into schools.
This would mean that the government would be able to choose and regulate everything regarding the manner in which that prayer will be done.
Does this sound like something the US government should be involved with?
Nobody says that a kid can't pray privately to him or herself in school.
But anyway, what is this "religion of Atheism" you mention?
Where do I go to worship? What are it's doctrines and tenets? Who are it's supreme leaders that all Atheists are bound to follow?
Lastly, you do know that the Declaration of Independence isn't the same thing as the Constitution, don't you?
Can you show where in the Constitution the Founders mention religion or God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by riVeRraT, posted 06-29-2006 6:27 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by riVeRraT, posted 06-29-2006 8:10 PM nator has replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 227 of 305 (327413)
06-29-2006 7:02 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by riVeRraT
06-29-2006 6:27 AM


once more ...
...the "tyranny" is when people try to take God out of our schools, and government completely.
We haven't. Last time I checked there was no litmus test for being an atheist to either go to school or to serve in government. There was no doctrine to sign for admission to either.
If you pray in school, you are not part of a religion. You can pray in the mannor of any religion, or choose not to pray, without fear. Because we are free.
Or if you pray anywhere else. This is what is allowed by the constitution.
When we took prayer out of the schools, we made atheism a religion, and a national one at that.
We haven't. See your comment quoted above. What part of being able to pray in school means prayer was taken out of school?
Or do you mean when they took out forced prayer in certain (not all) schools where they were enforcing a religion on others?
You cannot have enforced prayer just like you cannot have enforced non-prayer. That is what the freedom is about -- both ways.
And going back to your first comment quoted, taking out enforced prayer while leaving individual prayer allowed means that it has not been taken completely out.
What is left is your pure freedom to pray when and where you as an individually want to, unsullied by others trying to dictate it to you.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : typ0

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by riVeRraT, posted 06-29-2006 6:27 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 228 of 305 (327426)
06-29-2006 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by riVeRraT
06-29-2006 6:27 AM


When we took prayer out of the schools, we made atheism a religion, and a national one at that.
You have that wrong. Prayer was not taken out of the schools.
You can still pray privately in schools. And, according to Matt 6:6, private prayer is what you should be using anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by riVeRraT, posted 06-29-2006 6:27 AM riVeRraT has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 229 of 305 (327584)
06-29-2006 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by nator
06-29-2006 6:49 AM


But anyway, what is this "religion of Atheism" you mention?
Where do I go to worship?
School. There are rules there regarding your religion, and that is no praying in the classroom.
Lastly, you do know that the Declaration of Independence isn't the same thing as the Constitution, don't you?
Who cares?
Can you show where in the Constitution the Founders mention religion or God?
You mean the same guys?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by nator, posted 06-29-2006 6:49 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by Coragyps, posted 06-29-2006 8:33 PM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 233 by nator, posted 06-29-2006 9:25 PM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 230 of 305 (327585)
06-29-2006 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by RAZD
06-29-2006 7:02 AM


Re: once more ...
Or do you mean when they took out forced prayer
Forced prayer?
I have 2 kids in school right now. You have to see the look on the teachers faces if I even hint at mentioning the word God. It's a fucking joke.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by RAZD, posted 06-29-2006 7:02 AM RAZD has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by nator, posted 06-29-2006 9:33 PM riVeRraT has replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 231 of 305 (327594)
06-29-2006 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by riVeRraT
06-29-2006 8:10 PM


There are rules there regarding your religion, and that is no praying in the classroom.
Your school seems to be misinformed. The ACLU, for example, says
IS IT EVER OK TO PRAY IN SCHOOL?
Sure. Individual students have the right to pray whenever they want to, as long as they don't disrupt classroom instruction or other educational activities -- or try to force others to pray along with them. If a school official has told you that you can't pray at all during the school day, your right to exercise your religion is being violated. Contact your local ACLU for help.
Page not found | American Civil Liberties Union
Point that out to the principal or superintendant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by riVeRraT, posted 06-29-2006 8:10 PM riVeRraT has not replied

ramoss
Member (Idle past 613 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 232 of 305 (327600)
06-29-2006 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by riVeRraT
06-29-2006 6:27 AM


I see that you are missing the word 'Nature's God' This reflects the deist quality of the people who wrote the Declaration of Independence.
Of course, The Declaration is not a legal document. It is a historical docuement, but it has nothign to do with the laws of the U.S.
Also, prayer is not taken out of school. What is taken out of school is the promotion of religion in school BY THE GOVERNMENT. The school district, and the teachers can not impose their concepts of religion on others. This does not mean that the students can not pray. It means that the school district can not impose religion on the students.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by riVeRraT, posted 06-29-2006 6:27 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 233 of 305 (327611)
06-29-2006 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by riVeRraT
06-29-2006 8:10 PM


this reponse is pretty poor, rat
But anyway, what is this "religion of Atheism" you mention?
Where do I go to worship?
quote:
School.
I can become indoctrinated into the Church of Atheism in US public schools?
Cool.
Tell, me, though, coz I'm kind of confused...why do they still give kids time off at Christmas and Easter if they are all being indoctrinated into Atheism? Oh, and the Pledge of Allegience still has that "under God" thingie in it...I thought that Atheists didn't believe in God?
Can you show me a textbook of the tenets of Atheism that public school children are taught?
quote:
There are rules there regarding your religion, and that is no praying in the classroom.
How can anybody stop me from praying in class as a student, as long as I disturb no one?
Lastly, you do know that the Declaration of Independence isn't the same thing as the Constitution, don't you?
quote:
Who cares?
Someone who wants to make a point about the separation of church and state should care to know the difference, I should think.
Can you show where in the Constitution the Founders mention religion or God?
quote:
You mean the same guys?
Yes, the same guys.
Show me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by riVeRraT, posted 06-29-2006 8:10 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by riVeRraT, posted 06-30-2006 9:40 AM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 234 of 305 (327615)
06-29-2006 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by riVeRraT
06-29-2006 8:12 PM


Re: once more ...
Or do you mean when they took out forced prayer
quote:
Forced prayer?
Yes.
Public schools (many of them) used to require everyone to pray and read and memorize parts of the Bible.
The specific prayer that all students in one New York school district were required to recite in the 1950's was what brought on the Supreme Court decision that stopped state-sponsored prayer in school:
link
Public schools in the state of New York are under the supervision of a state government agency, the State Board of Regents. In the late 1950's, they published a "Statement on Moral and Spiritual Training in the Schools." One component of the statement was a prayer to be recited by public school students:
"Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers and our Country." 3
In the statement, they expressed the belief "that this Statement will be subscribed to by all men and women of good will, and we call upon all of them to aid in giving life to our program." That is an unusual statement. One would expect that most of the 88% of adult Americans who identified themselves as Christians at that time would subscribe to the Board of Regent's statement. Most followers of other theistic religions might also agree, because the prayer is not really a Christian prayer. The prayer implies only the existence of a single, monotheistic God who controls events in the universe and to whom one can pray, and receive benefits. Such a minimal prayer would offend few theists. But one would expect significant opposition from others. For example:
Atheists have no awareness of the existence of God;
Agnostics are undecided about the existence of God;
Buddhists generally have no belief in a personal God;
Humanists base their beliefs and practices on secular considerations;
Jews, because of centuries of Christian persecution, tend to oppose government involvement in religion;
Some theists who object in principle to state-sponsored prayers in public schools because of the degree of compulsion which is inevitably present; and
Many religious liberals rigorously defend the principle of separation of church and state, and would oppose school prayer on principle.
The Board of Regents appears to have considered such individuals to not be "men and women of good will" -- a stance that many people would consider arrogant and narrow-minded.
The Board of Education of Union Free School District No. 9 of New Hyde Park, NY, instructed their school principal to have the Regent's prayer recited by the students "aloud by each class in the presence of a teacher at the beginning of each school day." 3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by riVeRraT, posted 06-29-2006 8:12 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by RAZD, posted 06-30-2006 7:07 AM nator has not replied
 Message 240 by riVeRraT, posted 06-30-2006 9:43 AM nator has replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 235 of 305 (327691)
06-30-2006 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by nator
06-29-2006 9:33 PM


Re: once more ...
The specific prayer that all students in one New York school district were required to recite in the 1950's was what brought on the Supreme Court decision that stopped state-sponsored prayer in school:
It is also instructive to look at when the prayers were introduced before we discuss the issue of "taking them out" -- in this case in the 1950's ... during McCarthyism Hysteria?
As a result of {SOME} chrisitans again trying to get where they don't belong? There has been a constant assault since the days of the constitution on this religious freedom by those who only want it "free" for their kind.
Enjoy
Edited by AdminOmni, : fixed the quote box

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This message is a reply to:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 236 of 305 (327711)
06-30-2006 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by ramoss
06-29-2006 8:43 PM


What is taken out of school is the promotion of religion in school BY THE GOVERNMENT.
I guess you missed what I said.
But what was takin out of school was God.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 237 of 305 (327716)
06-30-2006 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by riVeRraT
06-30-2006 9:14 AM


But what was takin out of school was God.
If God is omnipresent, then He was not taken out of the schools.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by riVeRraT, posted 06-30-2006 9:14 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 238 of 305 (327718)
06-30-2006 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by nator
06-29-2006 9:25 PM


If you had kids, you would know
Tell, me, though, coz I'm kind of confused...why do they still give kids time off at Christmas and Easter if they are all being indoctrinated into Atheism?
For the last ten years I have been going to my kids concerts around the holidays. The selections of songs did not include anything that even pertains to religion, angels or God.
It's ok to sing about Santa, but not God.
This last year, somehow the kids sang Hallelujah, for the last song. The prinicipal was sweating bullets. But to his surprise, the crowd roared at the end, like no other time before in the last ten years.
It was just awesome, there was a unified feeling of, dare I say, fuck the fact that they took prayer out of school.
Can you show me a textbook of the tenets of Atheism that public school children are taught?
It's an underground cult, you know that. I am not sure on what you can say, but I know what you can't say. Anyone who looks to take God out of nation is part of that cult. I am not saying that all atheists are this way. But most are, and they are forcing their Godless view on the rest of the nation. They fight for separation of church and state for all the wrong reasons, but make it appear they are fighting for the right reasons. The Godless liberal judges grant them their wishes.
Listen everyone, stop all your jumping up and down. I live out here in the real world, and I can see clearly what the effect of taking prayer out of school has done. dare to mention God, in a positive way, in school now, and you will see. I am not going to get into a back and forth bullshit conversation about it. IT is what it is.
The governement or this nation was never intended to be Godless. That surely wasn't a goal of our founding fathers, period. The Declaration is a clear indication of that.
The consititution is the second indication that they never intended for us to be Godless. If they wanted us to be Godless, then they would have never mentioned a separation of church and state.
The only thing a separation of church and state means, is that our governement would not run any particular religion, and religion would not run our government. It was meant so that we could escape the "tyranny" of British Kings who forced you to believe a certain way.
A line from the declaration of Indenpence:
The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute tyranny over these states. To prove this, let facts be submitted to a candid world.
I will leave you with a quote from my original reply in Message 225 and I will remain steadfast on that quote.
quote:
While I agree that no particular religion should be part of our government, the "tyranny" is when people try to take God out of our schools, and government completely.


Exposing the lies, one truth at a time!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by nator, posted 06-29-2006 9:25 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 239 of 305 (327719)
06-30-2006 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by nwr
06-30-2006 9:21 AM


The bible does not say that God is, or is not omnipresent. But it is clear what happened to certain nations who were Godless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by nwr, posted 06-30-2006 9:21 AM nwr has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 240 of 305 (327720)
06-30-2006 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by nator
06-29-2006 9:33 PM


Re: once more ...
Just wondering, during that court case, did they put their left hand on a bible, and swear to tell the truth?
Message 225

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by nator, posted 06-29-2006 9:33 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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