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Author | Topic: Human Rights Violations | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Nemesis Juggernaut writes:
quote: In other words, he was trolling. Do not feed the trolls, people. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Nemesis Juggernaut writes:
quote: No, he didn't. Gore has always been against the invasion of Iraq. Do not confuse the campaign for the 2000 election with the 2003 invasion. Just as before, do you seriously think that nothing changed between the two times? Remember, the weapons inspectors were in Iraq. On the very day that Bush announced that he absolutely had to invade Iraq, the weapons inspectors were destroying some missiles that had too large of a range. Bush had to evacuate the inspectors in order to begin his invasion. So out with it, NJ. We'll need the exact quotes, dates, and places. Otherwise, like everything else you have put forward, we'll know that you simply pulled it out of your ass. Do not feed the trolls, people. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Nemesis Juggernaut writes:
quote: We've already been through this, NJ. I gave you plenty of examples. Have you forgotten about the FBI list of illegal "security letters" that were used to spy on Americans? The infiltration of Quakers? Greenpeace? People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals? The American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee? Jose Padilla: An American, held for years without counsel, no charges, secret evidence, tortured. Khaled El-Masri: Kidnapped, tortured. Germany has issued arrest warrants for the CIA officials involved. Maher Arar: Kidnapped, tortured. The Canadian government paid reparations due to their connection with the Americans. He remains on the watch list despite no evidence against him and is barred entry to the US. I cannot count the number of Americans who are on the "No Fly" list and cannot get off it because they are not allowed to challenge it. That's secret information. The post where I first brought this up was directed specifically to you, NJ. As I said then, "Tell ya what, n_j, you let me do to you what these laws allow and we'll see if you feel 'intruded upon.'" Do not feed the trolls, people. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Nemesis Juggernaut writes:
quote: (*blink!*) You did not just say that, did you? You asked this before and you were given a list of examples. Have you forgotten about the FBI list of illegal "security letters" that were used to spy on Americans? The infiltration of Quakers? Greenpeace? People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals? The American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee? Jose Padilla: An American, held for years without counsel, no charges, secret evidence, tortured. Khaled El-Masri: Kidnapped, tortured. Germany has issued arrest warrants for the CIA officials involved. Maher Arar: Kidnapped, tortured. The Canadian government paid reparations due to their connection with the Americans. He remains on the watch list despite no evidence against him and is barred entry to the US. I cannot count the number of Americans who are on the "No Fly" list and cannot get off it because they are not allowed to challenge it. That's secret information. Does kidnap and torture not mean anything to you?
quote: Yes. Those exigency letters from the FBI? They were all thrown out. The FBI gave a list of all their illegal activities. When the FBI tells you that they were violating the civil rights of Americans, isn't that sufficient to claim that they were doing so?
quote: Yes. The question is: Do you? Kidnap and torture, NJ. Is that really OK in your mind? Take the confirmation hearings for Mukasey. He couldn't bring himself to say that waterboarding is torture even though it has been declared such for over 300 years starting at least in the condemnation of the Inquisition. The United States has prosecuted people for engaging in waterboarding. It is defined as torture by treaty, case law, and statute. Does that not mean anything to you?
quote: Because you're scared. You seem to think that your liberty makes you vulnerable. Thus, in an attempt to assuage that fear, you try to make other people scared of things that happen in other countries.
quote: And yet here you are, arguing for precisely that.
quote: Unless you get declared an "enemy combatant" and are then kidnapped and tortured. Do not feed the trolls, people. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Nemesis Juggernaut writes:
quote: Because waterboarding is just a "fraternity prank," right?
quote: Tell that to the people who have been kidnapped and tortured, NJ. There are members of the CIA who cannot go to Germany now because there are warrants out for their arrest. Kidnapped and tortured, NJ.
quote: Pretty much every single one of us, NJ. The phone companies turned over your phone records to the feds without a warrant. Your civil rights have been violated. How many people are on the Do Not Fly list, NJ? Senator Ted Kennedy and Representative John Lewis are on it, NJ. Don't feed the trolls, people. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
The Revolutionary War was an unlawful rebellion and so only justifiable because we won. So you think we should become a British colony again and pay homage to the Queen?
The Mexican-American War was totally unjustified. Among other notable tensions, what really kicked off this conflict was over a land dispute. That land just so happens to be right where you live. Since its totally unjustified, will you be moving?
Civil War. Stupid and certainly not justified. However it was also unavoidable once cession was declared. Agreed.
World War II. Japan attacked the US and Germany declared war on the US. We had no choice after that except to fight. Seems reasonable.
Korean War. The US was a part of the UN Police Action. Perhaps justified. Eh... Let the UN fight its own wars.
Vietnam War. Totally unjustified. Agreed.
Operation Urgent Fury. Stupid and unjustified. Rescuing American hostages is stupid and unjustified? I'm glad that you weren't president then, or that I was a hostage.
Operation Just Cause. Unjustified and stupid. I think it was probably unjustified.
Persian Gulf War. Justified Agreed.
but also only happened because the Bush Administration gave Saddam the go ahead to invade Kuwait. Should I even ask? Nah.... Don't wanna drag it OT.
Somalia Conflict. Likely justified but very poorly executed. Definitely poorly executed. If Just Cause was unjustified, then this should be unjustified on similar grounds.
Operation Enduring Freedom: Possibly justifiable but also not too bright. Possibly? I think the seventh attack on the US without any retaliatory measures, this time on a massive scale, on our own soil, is a pretty good reason for military action.
The fact that human rights are stripped away from citizens and such things are made legal does not mean they are not human rights violations. That's not what I asked you. I asked for specific instances where the Patriot Act is infringing on the civil rights of its citizens. The biggest issue that I've seen people take with the PA, is the warrantless searches claim. So I thought perhaps we could go over it.
SEC. 213. AUTHORITY FOR DELAYING NOTICE OF THE EXECUTION OF A WARRANT. Section 3103a of title 18, United States Code, is amended--
`(b) DELAY- With respect to the issuance of any warrant or court order under this section, or any other rule of law, to search for and seize any property or material that constitutes evidence of a criminal offense in violation of the laws of the United States, any notice required, or that may be required, to be given may be delayed if--
I thought we might go over the Legalese. If you have any other specific objections outlined in the Patriot Act, feel free to add. “This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake
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DrJones* Member Posts: 2290 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 6.9 |
Eh... Let the UN fight its own wars.
It was the US who brought the matter to the UN security council. While it was a UN action it was instigated by the US (though I don't doubt that if the US didn't bring it up some one else, likely the UK would have).From wiki: Instead of pressing for a Congressional declaration of war, which he regarded as too alarmist and time-consuming when time was of the essence, Truman went to the United Nations for approval. Live every week like it's Shark Week! Just a monkey in a long line of kings. If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! *not an actual doctor
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Re: Operation Enduring Freedom; I suppose you have some support for either Afghanistan or the Taliban attacking the US?
Comparing Just Cause and Somalia; in Just Cause we invaded without looking at diplomatic options and with no indication that the students were under any threat. In Somalia we sent in military ONLY as security forces for humanitarian food distribution. The goal was not to displace war lords until the food distribution was disrupted and Belgian (IIRC) forces requested help. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 312 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
So you think we should become a British colony again and pay homage to the Queen? Yes. Bow down to your rightful redcoat overlords, Yankee.
Eh... Let the UN fight its own wars. You know that the US is a member of the UN, yes?
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 312 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Lastly, if healthcare is so bad in the US then why does everyone come here for treatment? I think you'll find that they don't.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Nemesis Juggernaut writes:
quote: And you were given them. At least twice before. Now we know that you're trolling, NJ. Do not feed the trolls, people. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
There was yet another example in today's news. Another of the parts of the Patriot Act has been overturned.
The key point in all of this is that the laws are set so the actions are kept secret. People ask for examples but how can you give examples when the actions themselves are secret? The US is becoming far more like some third world despot's playground where people are simply disappeared and where there are "Secret Police". Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
I think you fool yourself into thinking that your rights are NOT being eroded, willful ignorance. When something happens to me, or you for that matter, that indicates that our rights are being eroded I will certainly concede. Having libertarian qualities means not wanting personal freedoms to erode.
I also don't think you are bright enough to be anything more than a shill, a pawn that those who are eroding the rights use. Thanks for the vote of confidence, but really, there's no need for flattery, sir.
My rights have been eroded because I can be disappeared, simply taken and held with no one admitting where I went. Brilliant thought process. So you've also been killed in a car accident because you could be killed in a car accident? I hate to break the news to you, but you could disappear with or without the law. If someone wanted you to go away, you'd be gone.
Also the Patriot Act is simply a minor point. Far more threatening are the actual actions that have been taken, that warrantless wiretapping goes on, that homosexuals are deprived of their human rights, that the government lies consistently, that the whole policy of the government seems to be to move wealth into the pockets of the few. You forgot to mention that the Bogeyman lives under your bed per the directorate of the CIA. “This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
This is an English-speaking forum, so naturally the people here don't generally live in those countries. Why, then, would the subject of atrocities come up? I'm not clear on what you think is significant about the fact that we all don't feel the need to sit around listing various atrocities so we can all agree on how horrible they are. Because it uncovers the motive. Its like the media. When was the last time you heard about a school being built in Iraq, other than it being blown up by insurgents? When was the last time you heard about little Johnny being killed by an IED? Every 5 minutes. Why do you suppose that is?
Do you think that military action is the only solution to China's ongoing human rights problems? I don't. I don't even think that it's any kind of solution for the China situation. I don't either. Its not a question about what to do about China so much as it is a simple question about motivation.
China's human rights situation has been improving steadily over the decades as their markets are opened to the West. I can't argue there. But I suppose that doesn't much matter when you're the guy strapped to a gurney while someone is removing your kidneys while you're conscious.
Of course, you don't really care either way, right? You're just looking for some tortured "inconsistency" on which to hang a bullshit charge of hypocrisy. Oh, I care... Kinda hard not to care when people are being systematically murdered. The irony is that its all done for monetary gain-- something communists rail against. The charge of hypocrisy is just a fringe benefit. “This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1495 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Because it uncovers the motive. What motive? Look, NJ, feel free to make a list of atrocities and I'll tell you how awful I think they all are. Would you find that satisfactory? Or are you just desperate to find some bullshit justification on which to pin a charge of hypocrisy?
When was the last time you heard about a school being built in Iraq, other than it being blown up by insurgents? When was the last time you heard about little Johnny being killed by an IED? Every 5 minutes. Why do you suppose that is? Because there aren't any schools being built, construction has ground to a halt in Iraq due to the security situation, and a lot of people are still being killed over there for a war that isn't meeting any objective put forth for it.
But I suppose that doesn't much matter when you're the guy strapped to a gurney while someone is removing your kidneys while you're conscious. That's pretty horrible, if it's happening, but I do recall my church trying to tell me once - this is no shit - that in China they eat aborted fetuses in stir-fry. So, pardon me if I don't take your claims at face value. I'm aware that China harvests the organs of executed criminals - which you should recognize as pretty bad on its face if you're a Larry Niven reader - but pulling them out of live people? That's a stretch, I think. Even if that's happening, the solution isn't an invasion, its forcing China into even greater transparency through their inclusion into world affairs. For instance, the 2008 Olympics.
Kinda hard not to care when people are being systematically murdered. I don't have any problem telling you that systematically murdering people is bad. Like I said present whatever list of atrocities you find convenient and I'll be happy to tell you how awful I think they are. In the meantime, should I start compiling a list of all the atrocities you haven't specifically, explicitly condemned? Or can you recognize this specious reasoning all on your own without having to turn it back on you? Are we done here?
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