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Author Topic:   Radical Clerics, Christian Morals, and Homosexuality
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(1)
Message 121 of 153 (697531)
04-26-2013 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Straggler
04-26-2013 7:15 PM


Re: Reasons and Bigotry
Why can one not be apathetically disinclined...?
Because that doesn't fit with Phat's pseudophilosophical navel-gazing. Same way some Christians insist that atheists know deep down that their god exists and that we're just being rebellious children.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Straggler, posted 04-26-2013 7:15 PM Straggler has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 122 of 153 (697534)
04-26-2013 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Phat
04-26-2013 3:02 PM


Stop misrepresenting me.
Phat writes:
the Body of Christ will come from many religions. As jar says, it(the sheep) will include atheists, agnostics, pagans, etc... many of the goats will have professed yet not been real.
You keep writing word salad that just conflates words and nonsense.
I doubt you have ever heard me use word salad like "the Body of Christ" or conflate such nonsense with the parable of the Sheep and Goats.
Phat writes:
And as far as thinking goes? All I can say is that I believe in One Holy Spirit. We are all not it...at best we are either in communion with it or in rebellion against it.
So let's create false dichotomies and utter nonsense. Why are there only two options? How does someone know they are in communion with that One Holy Spirit? Why should anyone care?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Phat, posted 04-26-2013 3:02 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Phat, posted 04-27-2013 5:46 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 123 of 153 (697539)
04-27-2013 5:46 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by jar
04-26-2013 7:45 PM


Re: Stop misrepresenting me.
Matt 12:30-32-- "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.
It seems there are not multiple options. It seems to be a matter of either/or.
How does someone know they are in communion with that One Holy Spirit?
John 10:14-17--"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me- 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father-and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
Is this all of the sheep? well, we do know that God so loved the world...not just a few of us.....
then we get to your sheep/goats judgement...a passage that clearly tells us of two groups.
and why does it matter? Thats up to you. maybe for you it doesn't matter. You have said before that in your belief none of can know until we die. (or is that misrepresenting you also?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Edited by Phat, : spelling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by jar, posted 04-26-2013 7:45 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by jar, posted 04-27-2013 9:09 AM Phat has replied
 Message 126 by ramoss, posted 04-28-2013 2:10 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 124 of 153 (697541)
04-27-2013 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Phat
04-27-2013 5:46 AM


Re: Stop misrepresenting me.
Again, look at your quote; it's just more unsupported assertions by the authors of John and Matthew and they do not answer the questions I asked.
Why is there only two choices?
How does someone know they are in communion with that "One Holy Spirit?"
You also are still taking stuff out of context. You said...
Phat writes:
Matt 12:30-32-- "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.
but Matthew 12:30-32 actually says:
quote:
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
In addition maybe you should go back and read ALL of Matthew 12 so you can see the full quote mine in context.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Phat, posted 04-27-2013 5:46 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Phat, posted 04-29-2013 8:39 AM jar has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 125 of 153 (697547)
04-27-2013 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Phat
04-26-2013 3:02 PM


Re: Reasons and Bigotry
end
Phat writes:
Sorry....there is no shade of gray when it comes to truth.
Of course there are. Its all gray. There may be light gray at one end of the spectrum and dark gray at the other but you yourself agree that things like morality are relative, don't you? It's not only lazy thinking to focus on only the ends of the spectrum; it's dishonest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Phat, posted 04-26-2013 3:02 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Phat, posted 04-29-2013 8:28 AM ringo has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 126 of 153 (697651)
04-28-2013 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Phat
04-27-2013 5:46 AM


Re: Stop misrepresenting me.
Yet.. it's interesting that so many ignore Mark 9:40
Anyone who is not against us is for us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Phat, posted 04-27-2013 5:46 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 127 of 153 (697712)
04-29-2013 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Straggler
04-26-2013 7:15 PM


Re: Reasons and Bigotry
Phat writes:
All I can say is that I believe in One Holy Spirit. We are all not it...at best we are either in communion with it or in rebellion against it.
Straggler writes:
Why can one not be apathetically disinclined...?
In that case, within my belief paradigm(as opposed to in yours or Rahvins) you, being honest with yourself, would not be judged but would get an opportunity at some point to make the decision.
We become the decisions that we make, on a daily basis.
It could well be, within your paradigm and/or a shared societal paradigm, that God does not exist. Within that context I suppose that I would be horrendously disappointed...perhaps fatally so.
Yes, I believe that God exists. Yes, I believe that He exists regardless of whether you or I believed that He did.
And...yes I believe that God is a "He" due to the corporeal manifestation of Jesus Christ.
You and/or Rahvin may suggest otherwise, but the thing you nor I can do is claim that our belief paradigm is, in fact, a societal one.
In short, I vehemently disagree that absence of evidence in any way suggests evidence of absence.
Rahvin writes:
Because that doesn't fit with Phat's pseudophilosophical navel-gazing. Same way some Christians insist that atheists know deep down that their god exists and that we're just being rebellious children.
Time will tell.
jar writes:
Again, look at your quote; it's just more unsupported assertions by the authors of John and Matthew and they do not answer the questions I asked.
Your questions presuppose that your own logic, reason, and reality can frame the issue. The question isnt who the human authors were. The question is on source rather than content. You may claim that Mark Twain is every bit as capable of being spiritually inspired (the term as I use it is that "spiritual inspiration emanates from One source...One God...creator of all seen and unseen) as is/was the authors of John and/or Matthew. This is your belief. Am I wrong?
You then will probably go on and again try and frame this issue by using logic, reason, and reality...as you neatly put it...to explain that in any discussion, human wisdom is all that we have and that there is no such invention as divine inspiration....or that if there is, we all neatly and tidily have it.
My point? Quite simply, my point is my belief. God exists. We are not God. Humans did not define God...God created humans long before we even had the capacity to imagine..much less begin to understand Him. Perhaps now you will tell me that I am off topic, in which case I reluctantly bid you to frame the issue yet again. (though I'll likely disagree with your frame.)
Add by edit: That last point was aimed at jar...not you, Straggler.
You are, however, welcome to comment.
Edited by Phat, : clarification

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Straggler, posted 04-26-2013 7:15 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Straggler, posted 04-29-2013 8:54 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 128 of 153 (697713)
04-29-2013 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by ringo
04-27-2013 12:34 PM


Re: Reasons and Bigotry
perhaps i need clarify. the truth that I refer to is the person of Jesus Christ, known by some as the living truth.
In that context, there are no shades of gray. You either see Him as alive and above you or you see him as a human construct and a man-made religion. Perhaps, however, we conservative charismatics are guilty of superimposing our own ego (the need to be right) on Jesus and using Him to rubber stamp any and all arguments. In which case I'll concede to your grayness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by ringo, posted 04-27-2013 12:34 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by ringo, posted 04-29-2013 11:58 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 129 of 153 (697715)
04-29-2013 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by jar
04-27-2013 9:09 AM


Re: Stop misrepresenting me.
jar writes:
In addition maybe you should go back and read ALL of Matthew 12 so you can see the full quote mine in context.
Lets do it. Maybe I can learn something.
Matthew 12. Who said it? Jesus. To whom was it being said? The Pharisees. Am I right so far?
And as for shades of gray...
quote:
Matt 12:25-26
"Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand.
Is that black and white or is it gray? Keep reading. And don't sit on your high ground telling us we have never read the Bible whereas you have. Read it again. You have no greater authority of interpretation than do I. Have you ever read the bible, jar?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by jar, posted 04-27-2013 9:09 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by jar, posted 04-29-2013 10:14 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(2)
Message 130 of 153 (697716)
04-29-2013 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Phat
04-29-2013 8:21 AM


Re: Reasons and Bigotry
I suppose the bottom line here is that whilst you are free to believe whatever you damn well please it is quite another thing to in anyway impose such subjective beliefs on others.
Wiith regard to homosexuality specifically it seems in very large part a matter of interpretation and priority as to whether even the most devout Christian should have any more against homosexuality than the eating of prawns or working on the Sabbath and suchlike...
The fact is some people just cannot stop worrying about what other people do with their genitals in a way that is considerably more fanatical than their concern as to whether other people are eating shellfish. I don't wholly understand why.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Phat, posted 04-29-2013 8:21 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Phat, posted 04-30-2013 5:10 AM Straggler has replied
 Message 137 by Phat, posted 04-30-2013 9:06 AM Straggler has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 131 of 153 (697726)
04-29-2013 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Phat
04-29-2013 8:39 AM


Gish Gallop
So once again, instead of dealing with the questi0ons I asked you pull a Gish Gallop and change the subject.
Look at what is in the message to which you are replying.
quote:
Again, look at your quote; it's just more unsupported assertions by the authors of John and Matthew and they do not answer the questions I asked.
Why is there only two choices?
How does someone know they are in communion with that "One Holy Spirit?"
You also are still taking stuff out of context. You said...
Phat writes:
Matt 12:30-32-- "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.
but Matthew 12:30-32 actually says:
quote:
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
In addition maybe you should go back and read ALL of Matthew 12 so you can see the full quote mine in context.
Why are there only two choices?
How does someone know they are in communion with that "One Holy Spirit"?
Of course your latest quote mine is just another unsupported assertion, filled with shades of grey and pretty much just a either a tautology or trivially true.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Phat, posted 04-29-2013 8:39 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 132 of 153 (697739)
04-29-2013 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Phat
04-29-2013 8:28 AM


Re: Reasons and Bigotry
Phat writes:
You either see Him as alive and above you or you see him as a human construct and a man-made religion.
You're still creating a false dichotomy. There is a whole spectrum of belief from "Jesus is alive and above you" to "Jesus is alive and beside you" to "Jesus was alive but now that part of his mission is finished" and so on, all the way down to "Jesus is a human construct and a man-made religion". Some cliques do think in terms of "us" and "everybody else" but it's silly to pretend that everybody who disagrees with you does so for the same reasons. There are a thousand reasons why you're wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Phat, posted 04-29-2013 8:28 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 133 of 153 (697785)
04-30-2013 5:10 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Straggler
04-29-2013 8:54 AM


Re: Reasons and Bigotry
I resurrected this topic by citing an article. In order to respond to this topic, you will have to read the article and watch the first 6 minutes of this video in order to understand the position which I have. (see video below )
To reiterate, I brought up an article Macklemore-Same-Sex-Marriage-and-Human-Equality
In the article, the following appeared:
quote:
For example, what if someone asserted that it is an unalienable human right for a man to marry all the objects of his love: three different women, another man, his own daughter, his dog, and his cherished 1969 Chevrolet Camaro SS?Of course it is an absurd scenario. But why is it absurd? Who says?
At the time I read the article, I indeed agreed that it was absurd to equate loving another human in the same vein of loving a car. Then I saw this.
Watch just the first 6 minutes and then tell me you don't see the point of the Macklemore article.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Straggler, posted 04-29-2013 8:54 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by PaulK, posted 04-30-2013 8:02 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 135 by Straggler, posted 04-30-2013 8:03 AM Phat has replied
 Message 142 by hooah212002, posted 04-30-2013 5:31 PM Phat has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 134 of 153 (697787)
04-30-2013 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Phat
04-30-2013 5:10 AM


Re: Reasons and Bigotry
The point of the article is that a bigot is making a transparent attempt to cover up his bigotry. And the part you quote is just more evidence of that. The evasion of the real issues is so obvious.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Phat, posted 04-30-2013 5:10 AM Phat has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 135 of 153 (697788)
04-30-2013 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Phat
04-30-2013 5:10 AM


Re: Reasons and Bigotry
Phat quotes writes:
For example, what if someone asserted that it is an unalienable human right for a man to marry all the objects of his love:
Does the term "consenting adults" mean nothing to you....?
Phat writes:
At the time I read the article, I indeed agreed that it was absurd to equate loving another human in the same vein of loving a car.
People do some strange things with inanimate objects. And nothing you say or do is likely to change that. But if we are talking marriage specifically - Then it's a legal requirement that both parties consent is it not?
Can a car consent to marriage?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Phat, posted 04-30-2013 5:10 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Phat, posted 04-30-2013 8:56 AM Straggler has replied

  
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