Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,819 Year: 3,076/9,624 Month: 921/1,588 Week: 104/223 Day: 2/13 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Radical Clerics, Christian Morals, and Homosexuality
Tal
Member (Idle past 5677 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 1 of 153 (234525)
08-18-2005 1:51 PM


This is an off-shoot of Focus on the family keeping your kid from being gay thread. In that thread, James Dobsin is said by a poster to be a "radical cleric," insinuating that he is in the same boat as radical muslim clerics. I disagree.
What is a radical muslim cleric? That is simple. It is one who preaches violence against non-believers. That is what makes it hate speach.
What do most christain leaders preach about homosexuality? They preach that all men/women are sinners, and are all in need of a savior. Jesus died to pay for their sins, nomatter what those sins are. There is an emphasis on homosexuality, because that is where Satan is pressing the attack on our culture.
What do christains do about homosexuality? We do the same thing with homosexuals that we do with everyone else. If they come to church or a function, we preach the bible and God convicts them. We love them and help them just like anyone else.
Are there idiots in the world? Sure. If anyone says, "Hey, lets kill gay people," I will be the first to label them as radical fundamentalists.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by jar, posted 08-18-2005 2:33 PM Tal has replied
 Message 3 by Rahvin, posted 08-18-2005 2:42 PM Tal has not replied
 Message 6 by arachnophilia, posted 08-18-2005 3:06 PM Tal has not replied
 Message 21 by Silent H, posted 08-18-2005 5:53 PM Tal has not replied
 Message 22 by crashfrog, posted 08-18-2005 6:43 PM Tal has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 2 of 153 (234551)
08-18-2005 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tal
08-18-2005 1:51 PM


First, a compliment
That OP is one that you have written expressing your beliefs and not simply another cut & paste job. For that I would like to thank you.
The issue of homosexuality is one that our current culture needs to deal with.
While many Christians may see it as a sin, there are also many Christians that see it as no more a sin than eating shrimp, cutting your hair, wearing WoolRich clothes or working on the Sabbath. There is little support in the Bible, the most often cited examples being the Pauline passages. But they are ambiguous at best and many Christians acknowledge that Paul was being hypocritical when he spoke on homosexuality.
The origin of the Biblical proscription on homosexuality is in the same set of laws that Paul fought to have overturned. Paul was anxious to expand the church and so he willingly took the stand that Laws such as circumcision, dietary restrictions and dress should be set aside as null and void. He was more than willing to resort to most any subtrifuge, such as the classic example of the unnamed God, if they helped build his communities.
But regardless of whether or not homosexuality is considered a sin or not, the current social contract needs to be changed.
If homosexuality is a sin, then it is between the individual and God.
Proscribing the social contract relating to homosexuality should not be based on whether or not it is a sin, but on our duty to Love our Neighbor as Ourselves. As Christians we should be working to remove those portions of the social contract that adversly affect homosexuals. We should be opposing the Defence in Marriage Act, limitations on access to health care, inheritance rules, rights of adoption, safety and protection, and seeing that homosexual couples recieve all the societal benefits and responsibilities of heterosexual couples.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tal, posted 08-18-2005 1:51 PM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Tal, posted 08-18-2005 2:44 PM jar has replied
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 04-21-2013 10:47 AM jar has replied
 Message 75 by Phat, posted 04-22-2013 2:33 PM jar has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(1)
Message 3 of 153 (234556)
08-18-2005 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tal
08-18-2005 1:51 PM


From Dictionary.com:
quote:
Radical
1. Arising from or going to a root or source; basic: proposed a radical solution to the problem.
2. Departing markedly from the usual or customary; extreme: radical opinions on education.
3. Favoring or effecting fundamental or revolutionary changes in current practices, conditions, or institutions: radical political views.
Mr. Dobson's views, along with the views of some ultra-conservative Christians, regarding homosexuality are extremist. He favors radical changes to the US constitution. He has radical views about the nature of homosexuality (that it is somehow "preventable" or "curable") that are in no way consistant with modern psychiatry. He departs widely from the majority of people who don't actually consider homosexuality to be evil or wrong in any way.
He also departs from the majority on abortion - he supports the execution of abortion doctors. Note that this is not very different from saying "kill the abortionists." Note also that people who agree with him have actually murdered abortion doctors in their clinics.
How, exactly, does he not meet the definition of a radical cleric?
What is a radical muslim cleric? That is simple. It is one who preaches violence against non-believers. That is what makes it hate speach.
That's not the only form of hate speech.
Also from Dictionary.com:
quote:
Hate Speech
Bigoted speech attacking or disparaging a social or ethnic group or a member of such a group.
Dobson's views are certainly bigotted, and they directly attack a specific social group. How are his statements not hate speech?
What do most christain leaders preach about homosexuality? They preach that all men/women are sinners, and are all in need of a savior. Jesus died to pay for their sins, nomatter what those sins are.
Yes, this is what most preachers teach regarding sin. Not exactly what all Christians believe, of course - there are different interpretations.
There is an emphasis on homosexuality, because that is where Satan is pressing the attack on our culture.
Right, so murder, theft, rape, freaking terrorism, and other violations of the actual Ten Commandments are NOT where our culture is under attack? If there is a Satan, why would he try to promote homosexuality when there are so many acts which actually violate Gods commandments?
What do christains do about homosexuality? We do the same thing with homosexuals that we do with everyone else. If they come to church or a function, we preach the bible and God convicts them. We love them and help them just like anyone else.
Except for the Christians who don't view it as a sin. Then they just carry on as normal.
Except people like Fred Phelps, a man only a baby step removed from Dobson, who actually does tell people to "kill the fags."
You know, both of them refer to the "homosexual agenda" in exactly the same way.
Are there idiots in the world? Sure. If anyone says, "Hey, lets kill gay people," I will be the first to label them as radical fundamentalists.
Yeah, that would be an example. Another would be Dobson. The KKK doesn't have to actually KILL blacks and Jews to be committing hate crimes, you know. Dobson is a radical extremist - he's just not violent, which is not part of the definition.
All violent clerics are radical, but not all radical clerics are violent. Dobson, so far, is amongst the latter.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tal, posted 08-18-2005 1:51 PM Tal has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by mick, posted 08-18-2005 3:39 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5677 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 4 of 153 (234560)
08-18-2005 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by jar
08-18-2005 2:33 PM


Re: First, a compliment
The origin of the Biblical proscription on homosexuality is in the same set of laws that Paul fought to have overturned.
How about Corinthians and Romans?
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NIV): "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters, nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God
Romans 1:27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
Looks pretty cut and dry there.
Paul was anxious to expand the church and so he willingly took the stand that Laws such as circumcision, dietary restrictions and dress should be set aside as null and void.
Cite verses please. Is homosexuality stated as a law he wanted null and voided?
But regardless of whether or not homosexuality is considered a sin or not, the current social contract needs to be changed.
What does this have to do with extremist clerics?

"War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." John Stuart Mill

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by jar, posted 08-18-2005 2:33 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by jar, posted 08-18-2005 2:59 PM Tal has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 5 of 153 (234575)
08-18-2005 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Tal
08-18-2005 2:44 PM


Re: First, a compliment
They are, as I said, among the Pauline documents. Many Christians interpret those as other than consecual homosexuality.
But the point is, regardless, whether or not they are a sin, it is between the individual and GOD. If you believe it a sin, then don't do it. If you believe that wearing WoolRich clothes or eating shrimp are a sin, then don't do it.
But denying someone the rights and responsibilities afforded others IS contrary to Love thy neighbor as you love yourself.
People such as Falwell, Robertson, Swaggart, Dobson and Phelps are radical clerics because they seek to impose their personal beliefs by force on others.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Tal, posted 08-18-2005 2:44 PM Tal has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Monk, posted 08-18-2005 8:21 PM jar has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 6 of 153 (234584)
08-18-2005 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tal
08-18-2005 1:51 PM


In that thread, James Dobsin is said by a poster to be a "radical cleric," insinuating that he is in the same boat as radical muslim clerics. I disagree.
for once tal, i think i agree with you. i watched some documentary on fundamentalist islam -- including violent extremists. i promptly thanked god for our fundamentalists. at least they're not hurting too many people.
but. even though there is a vast difference, both groups are indeed radical. the only requirement for radical beliefs are ones that are against the norm or mainstream. that's not to say it's a BAD thing. jesus was a radical (and they killed him for it).
but no, our radicals are nowhere near as bad as their radicals.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tal, posted 08-18-2005 1:51 PM Tal has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by macaroniandcheese, posted 08-18-2005 3:10 PM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 8 by Theodoric, posted 08-18-2005 3:11 PM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 10 by coffee_addict, posted 08-18-2005 3:18 PM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 16 by mick, posted 08-18-2005 3:27 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 7 of 153 (234585)
08-18-2005 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by arachnophilia
08-18-2005 3:06 PM


you know. except for the ones who randomly kill gay people and abortion doctors.
don't forget. there are christian terrorists, too. maybe they don't attack whole countries, but any death is just that. but then again i'm curious at what point bush and his arm of god are going to cross that line.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by arachnophilia, posted 08-18-2005 3:06 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by arachnophilia, posted 08-18-2005 3:20 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 8 of 153 (234586)
08-18-2005 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by arachnophilia
08-18-2005 3:06 PM


If our government was not so stable, do you really think the christian radicals would be any different. Look at what happened in Bosnia.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by arachnophilia, posted 08-18-2005 3:06 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Rahvin, posted 08-18-2005 3:15 PM Theodoric has not replied
 Message 12 by arachnophilia, posted 08-18-2005 3:20 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 9 of 153 (234589)
08-18-2005 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Theodoric
08-18-2005 3:11 PM


If our government was not so stable, do you really think the christian radicals would be any different. Look at what happened in Bosnia.
Like I said, we aren't talking about huge leaps to go from "homosexuality is evil" to "kill all the fags." These are the people who will use slective literal reading of the Bible to justify any bigotted and hateful idea they want. All they need is a little less fear of consequence, and they'd cross the line.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Theodoric, posted 08-18-2005 3:11 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by berberry, posted 08-18-2005 3:22 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 10 of 153 (234591)
08-18-2005 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by arachnophilia
08-18-2005 3:06 PM


arach writes:
i promptly thanked god for our fundamentalists. at least they're not hurting too many people.
Huh? They managed to keep somdomy laws in place until the 21st century when it was finally overturned by the supreme court in 2001. As far as I'm concerned, imprisoning people for performing consensual sex with consenting adults in private bedrooms/properties is only a step up from executing them (what is happening in Iran right now).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by arachnophilia, posted 08-18-2005 3:06 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by arachnophilia, posted 08-18-2005 3:22 PM coffee_addict has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 11 of 153 (234592)
08-18-2005 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by macaroniandcheese
08-18-2005 3:10 PM


christian terrorists
you know. except for the ones who randomly kill gay people and abortion doctors.
that's why i put "don't kill too many people." i know i have a habit of sarcastic understatement, but that one was meant to accurate. there are crazy fundamentalists that DO kill people. but compared to the violence that goes on in the muslim world...

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by macaroniandcheese, posted 08-18-2005 3:10 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 12 of 153 (234593)
08-18-2005 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Theodoric
08-18-2005 3:11 PM


If our government was not so stable, do you really think the christian radicals would be any different. Look at what happened in Bosnia.
don't count on it. look at our government's positions regarding christian fundamentalism.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Theodoric, posted 08-18-2005 3:11 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 13 of 153 (234594)
08-18-2005 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by coffee_addict
08-18-2005 3:18 PM


Huh? They managed to keep somdomy laws in place until the 21st century when it was finally overturned by the supreme court in 2001. As far as I'm concerned, imprisoning people for performing consensual sex with consenting adults in private bedrooms/properties is only a step up from executing them (what is happening in Iran right now).
yes, but would you agree that executing them is worse?
that's sort of what i'm getting at. a lesser of two evils. i'd rather have no evils, personally. but our evils don't seem to be quite as bad as theirs.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by coffee_addict, posted 08-18-2005 3:18 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by coffee_addict, posted 08-18-2005 3:47 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 153 (234595)
08-18-2005 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Rahvin
08-18-2005 3:15 PM


Rahvin writes:
quote:
These are the people who will use slective literal reading of the Bible to justify any bigotted and hateful idea they want. All they need is a little less fear of consequence, and they'd cross the line.
Absolutely! They've done it before, or have we all forgotten the lynchings that were common here in the South before segregation was ended?

"I think younger workers first of all, younger workers have been promised benefits the government promises that have been promised, benefits that we can't keep. That's just the way it is." George W. Bush, May 4, 2005

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Rahvin, posted 08-18-2005 3:15 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by arachnophilia, posted 08-18-2005 3:26 PM berberry has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 15 of 153 (234596)
08-18-2005 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by berberry
08-18-2005 3:22 PM


Absolutely! They've done it before, or have we all forgotten the lynchings that were common here in the South before segregation was ended?
uh, they still do. in this post, regarding selective and biased distortions of the bible, i wrote:
quote:
If however we read it with the notion of supporting some off base idea then it doesn't really matter, as we can always find some way to justify our thoughts and actions if we want to.
well, that's exactly the point.
for instance, the church of jesus christ-christian justifies their particular belief system with the bible.
religious people can seem to make the bible say anything they want. we're making god in our image, not the other way around. i think trying to understand what it's really saying -- and not some biased dogmatic interpretation and bending of the facts -- is of grave importance.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by berberry, posted 08-18-2005 3:22 PM berberry has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024