Ultimate Fighting is bad?

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I've practiced both Jiu Jitsu (Brazilian) and Judo (1 year). We never have learned a strangling technique. I may just be nitpicking here, but a strangle is when you cut off the wind pipe of an opponent so they can no longer breath. All chokes that I've learned (including the rear naked if it is applied properly) are called "blood chokes" because they involve squeezing the side of the neck in order to put pressure on the carotid arteries and hence block the blood supply to the brain.

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Crash mentioned strangles. I`m sure he didn`t want to get into the intricacies of air versus blood constrictions.

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This almost sounds like an oxymoron. Wrestling for the advantage (as in greco roman, Judo, and Jiu Jitsu) requires the utmost technical skill. The reason most tournaments fall into wrestling matches is because the techniques taught aren't that practical in a one on one combat situation. Look at boxing, even with all their skill, they still constantly get tangled up with each other and have to keep getting seperated in order for them to box some more. Most other combat sports are the same way, i.e. their just too impractical. This is why Tae Kwon Do fighters have to be constantly seperated during a match, Karate fighters have to be, etc. The most natural outcome of a one on one fight is grappling, and if the art doesn't incorperate grappling into their system it will be almost impossible for the fighters to showcase the skills they learned during these sparring matches. This is why the seem boring.

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Watch film of Olympic and world titles in grappling martial arts.

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I must object to you implying that MMA is for testosterone-laden youth. The majority of the country in Japan and Brazil appreciate the sport, not to mention a lot of other countries who have a strong fan base(Russia, Croatia, Holland, Germany, and a lot of other European countries).

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I was replying to whether fighting arts have a place in the 'civilised' world.

It sounds like you're saying that Japan and the other countries listed are not 'civilized'? Surely that's not what you mean.

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Somewhat false. Boxers are conditioned to boxing. MMA fighters are conditioned to MMA. Conditioning is an individual criteria, not a sportwide steretype. The aspect that yeilds some truth is that MMA is much more diverse than boxing in that you MUST be conditioned to MORE situations, as there are less rules and therefore more possiblities.

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There may be an equivocation of "conditioning" here. I'm referring to overall physical fitness, including cardiovascular and muscular endurance. If a boxer is good enough, they learn to expell little energy when boxing and their cardiovascular doesn't have to be a high as it would for a greco-roman type wrestling match. That statement may not even be correct, because I'm referring to heavy weight boxers, examples being Rydell Booker and George Foreman. There are a lot of well conditioned boxers, though, especially in the lower weight classes.So, I guess the statement may be false, since the conditioning depends on the individual and their skill level. But I would still say, from my experience fighting and watching fights, that the average MM artist has to be better conditioned, cardiovascular and muscular wise, than the average boxer. I realize this is anecdotal, so you can take it or leave it.

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JustinCy- "Legs are never broken in an MMA match."

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It is very rare indeed. However, it does occur...usually as the result of a heel hook or repeated leg kicks. I'm not sure if anyone is familiar with Pete Spratt Vs. Robbie Lawler?
The truth is though that there are more injured legs in kickboxing than in MMA, more head injuries in boxing than MMA, and less risk of serious joint/bone damage than in submission wrestling mostly due to the number of very qualified referees.

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Yes, I broke the golden rule of "Never say Never." I even remember watching an amateur MMA match and the fighters both connected kicks to each others shins, and the one guys tibia broke in half. Very rare though.How can a heel hook break a leg bone? Wouldn't it just tear your ACL, MCL, LCL, or some other knee ligament? I have watched the Lawler-Spratt fight, and I don't remember any leg bones getting broken. I tried to look up what the result was, and I found a report saying a dislocated hip and another saying a knee ligament injury. So I don't know, but I don't think a bone was broken.

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Watch where your going with that argument Justin. It all depends on the person's athletic capabilities as to which sport is harder. I know cuz I've done both. I seem to have better natural wind in boxing, but thats just me. Some people find wrestling alot easier to endure. theres no way of saying which is harder because the two sports are both very difficult in completely different ways.

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I guess I should do some research before I make such a statement, but I still think that wrestling (greco-roman) requires much more cardiovascular and muscular endurance than boxing, since you have to constantly change positions and tense up a large portion of your muscles and fight pins. In boxing. you can stay relatively relaxed the whole time and cardio and muscular endurance aren't as as big of factors. I see several out of shape boxers do well, Booker and Foreman being examples, but I rarely see an out of shape MM artist do well.I must also remind myself that Booker and Foreman are heavy weight boxers, and that lower weight classes are more conditioned. But the lower weight classes in MMA also have to be more conditioned, so i still think its a fair assessment.I also am making a distinction between BJJ and Wrestling (GR). I can have a BJJ sparring match or tournament match and barely expell any energy, but I think wrestling is a whole different beast from my experience (I wrestled from 9-12 in highschool, and occasionally grapple greco roman rules nowadays. I never considered myself that great, only proficient, so maybe the great wrestlers don't need to be as conditioned).This message has been edited by JustinCy, 11-19-2004 03:45 AM

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Watch film of Olympic and world titles in grappling martial arts.

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I do, all the time. Including the GR wrestling and Judo in this years Olympics, ADCC, Gracie invitationals, and a lot of other grappling tournaments. What's your point? That they don't involve any skill?

JustinCy- "I guess I should do some research before I make such a statement, but I still think that wrestling (greco-roman) requires much more cardiovascular and muscular endurance than boxing, since you have to constantly change positions and tense up a large portion of your muscles and fight pins. In boxing. you can stay relatively relaxed the whole time and cardio and muscular endurance aren't as as big of factors. I see several out of shape boxers do well, Booker and Foreman being examples, but I rarely see an out of shape MM artist do well."It seems to me that your jsut saying the same thing with more words. I like that you brought up some examples, but other than that all you did is return to your opinion. I appreciate that you could tell us some breif examples aas to why the physics are different, but those are things that are common knowlege, such as "you have to constantly change positions." Wrestling is about changing positions yes, but so is boxing. I practice more head ducks and focus on head level and angle more in boxing than I do in wrestling. The point I was trying to bring up is that how "hard" a sport may be is an individual opinion and therefore its not very debatable.

JustinCy- "How can a heel hook break a leg bone? Wouldn't it just tear your ACL, MCL, LCL, or some other knee ligament?"Generally yes. Actually I was at a loss since I misunderstood what you meant by "break a leg bone." By break I thought you meant simply inable to use the leg, not nessicarily a fractured tibia, fibia,femur or w/e...sorry for the confusion.Hey and how about that kickboxing match where that guys leg broke? I remember seeing that at age 16...I had just started kickboxing and I was taking a seminar at this place called "The Pit." It seemed like a much more brutal sport than it really is, I think people sell it that way. Which is precisely my next point....

"Two men enter...one leaves alive." This was the impression people wanted to give about Ultimate Fighting in the US. In fact their [UFC]slogan went something along that lines of that quote. The point I'm making is simple...they marketed the sport as violent and therefore people see it as violent. Our perspective of MMA as a violent, out of control "somewhat technical" slugfest is in part the nature of our culture. Therefore people use terms like "it's uncivilized" because it is just another way of saying "thats different than I'm used to, get it away...I'm afraid of change in attitudes." On the flip side, using culture as an example, Japan is very geared towards MMA today. I beleive it was Born2Preach that brought up the question: do you think that Japan is uncivilized?Once again my point is simple, if we are taught to beleive something is violent we will beleive it...unless evidence comes along that is otherwise. I beleive that evidence is found in the attitudes of most fighters in MMA. Try and get to know one and you liekly will not find violent tendencies but rather drive and desire towards one's particular sport.

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It seems to me that your jsut saying the same thing with more words. I like that you brought up some examples, but other than that all you did is return to your opinion. I appreciate that you could tell us some breif examples aas to why the physics are different, but those are things that are common knowlege, such as "you have to constantly change positions." Wrestling is about changing positions yes, but so is boxing. I practice more head ducks and focus on head level and angle more in boxing than I do in wrestling.

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Yes, changing posititions is a part of both sports, that was a inarticulate way to say it. I'd say the difference, though, is that in wrestling you are changing positions while the opponent resists your change in motion, so you have to expend more energy.Can you think of any examples of a MM artist doing well in modern MMA while being as out of shape as Booker or Foreman? I honestly can't, but my memory may just be lacking.

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The point I was trying to bring up is that how "hard" a sport may be is an individual opinion and therefore its not very debatable.

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I completely agree with this, since the difficulty of a sport not only depends on the amount of conditioning needed, but also the technical skills required, which come more natural to some than to others.I picked up BJJ very easily, but still feel awkward when doing Judo (I am 6'4, so a lot of the hip throws aren't very practical for me unless I can lower my weight quick enough).

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"Two men enter...one leaves alive." This was the impression people wanted to give about Ultimate Fighting in the US. In fact their [UFC]slogan went something along that lines of that quote. The point I'm making is simple...they marketed the sport as violent and therefore people see it as violent.

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This is a very good point. A lot of the marketing in the US doesn't focus on the skills of the competitors but try and play up the violence involved. Sometimes at night I see infomercials for MMA videos, and they constantly show the worst knockouts and submissions with some intense rock music playing. This is probably why MMA is misconcieved by so many people.

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Our perspective of MMA as a violent, out of control "somewhat technical" slugfest is in part the nature of our culture. Therefore people use terms like "it's uncivilized" because it is just another way of saying "thats different than I'm used to, get it away...I'm afraid of change in attitudes."

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Also a good point. The idea that two guys trading punches is somehow more or less civilized than two guys trading punches, kicks, and grappling is beyond me, but our the majority of people in our culture tend to agree that it boxing is more civilized.Sure, there are violent aspects to the sport, but that shouldn't discredit the technical skill involved. If you focus on the violence in a football game, it seems barbaric, but you'd be missing the forest for the trees. I think the same type of monofocusing occurs when people watch MMA, since the skills involved may not be apparent to someone unknowledgable about the sport.

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Once again my point is simple, if we are taught to beleive something is violent we will beleive it...unless evidence comes along that is otherwise. I beleive that evidence is found in the attitudes of most fighters in MMA. Try and get to know one and you liekly will not find violent tendencies but rather drive and desire towards one's particular sport.

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I'm one of the least violent people I know. When people provoke me for whatever reason, I can never get angry enough to actually want to fight them. It just doesn't seem worth it. When I see senseless violence acts on TV, like Bum Wars or on Real TV, I'm disgusted by them.During an MMA match, it's more a match of skills than it is violence, so I don't get as turned off by it.*Yes, I've seen that kickboxing video and damn, that's horrible. I actually saw an MMA match, though, where the same thing happened. I heard it's a result of not conditioning your shins enough for impact, though I think anybody's shins would break if two people connected at the right spot with how hard most MM artists can a kick.

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nighttrain writes:
I was replying to whether fighting arts have a place in the 'civilised' world.

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It sounds like you're saying that Japan and the other countries listed are not 'civilized'? Surely that's not what you mean.

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Not at all. Folk denigrate martial arts as brutal or primitive. I said that since we aren`t civilised, we still need martial arts.

Watch the action. Constant stiff arms, changing grips, pushing and shoving from a low position, all designed to prevent entry. More time is spent on learning how to get close than on actual techniques. Most matches are interupted by contestants being called back on to the mat, or finishing in a tangle. Refs constantly warm contestants to break and stand upright, but, back they go into the stiff-arm defensive crouch. Most matches are awarded for a cumulation of half-points rather than clean Ippons.

There is technique to that. You ever tried stopping some sweaty, angry guy from passing your guard? It's not as easy at it looks. The idea of Brazilian Jiujitsu is to gain an optimal position such as mount, sidemount, or backmount, then go for the finish. This is why there are not as many submissions from other positions, the guard excepted. Try using a keylock when you're in somebody's guard and you'll notice that it doesn't work; there is a reason they go for the 'closeness' before the finish.

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God is far more powerful than what most have in mind. Imagine God as best you can. Now zoom out from that picture in your mind and imagine a God above the previous one, even more powerful than the first. Zoom out further and imagine an even greater God. Now do that endlessly. That, my friend, is but a glimmering sliver of God.Xanga 2.0 is Here! (WARNING:EXPLICT LANGUAGE)

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Watch the action. Constant stiff arms, changing grips, pushing and shoving from a low position, all designed to prevent entry. More time is spent on learning how to get close than on actual techniques. Most matches are interupted by contestants being called back on to the mat, or finishing in a tangle. Refs constantly warm contestants to break and stand upright, but, back they go into the stiff-arm defensive crouch. Most matches are awarded for a cumulation of half-points rather than clean Ippons.

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You are referring to Judo here. While Judo does require a tremendous amount of skill, it is also very easy to take a deep stance and stall, which is one of the reasons I didn't like Judo. Of course it is easy to throw someone standing completely upright, but what about when they lower their center of gravity? That was a problem for me. My teacher, a former Olympic Judo prospect, could still do well against an opponent in this position, and any expert knows how to use this position to their advantage, though it requires a lot of technique and coordination.Judo is more of a standing grappling art, so it's analogous to a Karate, Boxing, or Tae Kwon Doe match in the sense that it doesn't showcase ground techniques. In these sports, it is very easy to stall, either by closing the distance in the striking arts or by keeping your distance in the grappling arts. (I realize Judo has several ground techniques, but most opponents just turtle during the matches and wait for the ref to stand them back up).This isn't indicative of all the grappling arts, though. In most other tournaments,like ADCC and GR Olympics, it requires a lot of skill to defend against your opponents moves and it's anything but but people skillessly jostling for a dominant position. Even at the lower levels, it's hard to stall in BJJ, GR, shoot wrestling, Sambo, and a lot of other grappling arts. Have you ever watched an ADCC (Abu Dhabi Combat Club)tournament?

JustinCy- "Even at the lower levels, it's hard to stall in BJJ, GR, shoot wrestling, Sambo, and a lot of other grappling arts."I wasn't aware that it is difficult to stall. You see it all the time in BJJ. In fact waiting for the right opportunity is part of BJJ philosophy.Perhaps what you meant is it's hard to get away with stalling in these arts. Thats definately true of wrestling.

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I wasn't aware that it is difficult to stall. You see it all the time in BJJ. In fact waiting for the right opportunity is part of BJJ philosophy.

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Perhaps what you meant is it's hard to get away with stalling in these arts. Thats definately true of wrestling.

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I practice BJJ all the time, and from my experience it is definately difficult to stall when you are grappling against a good opponent. I do No Gi BJJ, though, but I have also done Gi and stalling was never an issue.The only time I see it is when two lower level Gi BJJ practitioners just sit in the guard position, either because the guy on the bottom doesn't know how to have an agressive guard or the guy on top doesn't know how to pass the guard efficiently, and is too afraid to make a move for fear of being submitted. The both of them usually contribute to the stalling, whereas in a Judo match is pretty easy for one person to stall the entire match.From my BJJ experience, and all around submission grappling experience, the match consists of constantly going for submissions, defending submissions, sweep attempts and counters, and just all around constant transitioning. One person never dictates the pace of the matches.Again, I have seen practitioners, like Ricardo Arona, who do a lot of "lay and prey", but this also involves the person on the bottom not attempting any sweeps or submissions out of fear of losing a neutral position.