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Author Topic:   Has EvC changed your beliefs?
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 181 of 223 (329751)
07-08-2006 1:14 AM


I came here out of curriousity. I was very tired of other typical formats where people rant on end and topics deteriorated. This sight has many people willing to discuss topics at length. That is refreshing. I find that this sight has it's shortcomings in that a subject can be discussed too narrowly. I also have learned that to come from the point of view that science will reveal the truth as some believe here, is a falicy. As I have come to understand it, This will reveal a view of facts. I have come to understand just how tentative all science truly is. How subject it is to point of view. I have come to see science in the light of dogma just as any other religion. I had never seen that fact before I came here. The idea of science is great but you can't escape the influence of the source. I have come to understand that sciences aproach requires that one denies the source.
Science searches for the causality instead of recognizing me.
I am hardly anti science. Grew up inhaling stuff about bugs and planets and lots of interesting and wonderful things. The basice idea of evolution makes perfect sense. To pit it against creationism is comparing apples to the plannet. Evolution is one small view of an unknown picture who's expanse we can only guess at. It is not involved with the nature or depth of human spirit that creationism is attatched to. Then there are those who demand evidence of human spirit and on and on it goes.
I have learned that by scientific observation that the best evidence is simply repeatable observable occurances. What they are and what they mean must be defined by us. How we see things is how we will define things and how we will determine what they mean to us.
I have learned that facts do not matter. They have no meaning. We bring meaning to facts. How we interpret them and what we do with them is what has meaning. I have come to understand that our understanding of facts is second fiddle to our understanding of each other and ourselves. A fact is nothing. Meaning is everything.
This is what I have come to understand since I have come here.
A simple synopsis of my take is this.
What is music. Let us examine it. Wonderfull. We may learn.
There comes a point when one can anal-ise the feeling right out of music. It loses it's meaning. Shut up and listen or shut up and play.

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 182 of 223 (329798)
07-08-2006 5:27 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by Larni
07-07-2006 9:30 PM


Dude, my respect for you knows no bounds, but that comment sums up your version of xianty.
Smoke and mirrors.
If 1 Cor 2:14 is true of the non believer then understanding Christianity for you might be expected to be looking through a glass very darkly. I take it you understand the proposed need (of everyone) for and mechanism of the gospel but do not believe what it says. I can do little about that. That is between you and him.
But if the proposed need for and mechanism of the Gospel is still unclear then perhaps we can do a great debate run through on Romans Chaps 1 to say 9. Its all contained within. Or if you like I can give a synopsis of it: main elements contained within and you can read it for yourself and reflect on it. Reading the Bible without the framework is difficult and you can take the suggested framework and decide for yourself whether it accurately represents what Romans conveys.
The Bible distilled to 9 chapters. Can't say fairer than that.
Sorry your low. Christianity solves many things - but not that

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Larni, posted 07-07-2006 9:30 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 183 of 223 (329803)
07-08-2006 6:32 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by iano
07-06-2006 6:46 PM


quote:
Now when your told you're blind to something, do you accept that maybe the person telling you has a point?
Well, if that person is talking to me, I run what they are saying through my handy, dandy Bullshit Detector.
You should really think about getting one, iano.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by iano, posted 07-06-2006 6:46 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by iano, posted 07-08-2006 6:51 AM nator has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 184 of 223 (329804)
07-08-2006 6:51 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by nator
07-08-2006 6:32 AM


Bullshit Detector.
Every detector needs to be calibrated against something absolute in order to ensure the reading on the dial can be trusted. Your calibration cert Miss Schrafinator?
...and the calibration cert for the calibration cert
...and the calibration cert for the calibration cert for the calibration cert.
Ad subjectivum infinitum...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by nator, posted 07-08-2006 6:32 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by nator, posted 07-08-2006 7:06 AM iano has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 185 of 223 (329805)
07-08-2006 6:54 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by GDR
07-07-2006 11:48 PM


Re: Changes to what I believe
quote:
The other point I'd make is, that my experience with YEC's is by and large positive. The ones I have met are bringing up their kids in a loving environment, and basically just get on with their life like the vast majority of people. As much as I find science and the minimal knowledge I have of it fascinating, I don't think it really impacts one's life if they wish to believe that the Earth is 6000 years old.
Hey, if the religious people want to teach their kids that modern science is all wrong and that a pre-scientific religious book from 2000 years ago is factually true, that's fine with me.
But you forget that these are the same people who have been working very hard, for decades now, to get their religious view taught in US public schools.
They do NOT want to keep to themselves. They want to force everyone's children to be as ignorant of modern science as their's are.
From a wider perspective, it DOES impact everyone's life if a significant number of people believe that the Earth is 6000 years old and all of the other stuff that an YEC believes about nature.
If these people can believe such baseless things simply because their religious instructors required it of them, then they are that much easier to manipulate and be told what to believe by political leaders, as well. Unquestioning obedience and loyalty are valued much more than critical inquiry and doubt in the YEC camp, as is amply demonstrated here.
Lastly, our world is based upon education, science and technology. I do not believe it to be good for a populace to remain ignorant in such a world. We are falling behind in the US in such fields as it is, and the Dover school board case tells me that the YEC's remain determined to keep us from catching up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by GDR, posted 07-07-2006 11:48 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 186 of 223 (329806)
07-08-2006 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by 2ice_baked_taters
07-08-2006 1:14 AM


quote:
I also have learned that to come from the point of view that science will reveal the truth as some believe here, is a falicy.
What do you mean by "truth"?
quote:
The idea of science is great but you can't escape the influence of the source.
What is this "source" of science you speak of?
quote:
There comes a point when one can anal-ise the feeling right out of music. It loses it's meaning.
I disagree.
The meaning never left the music just because it has been analysed.
The meaning of the music is subjective for each individual, anyway, so for some people, the music may never have had any meaning in the first place.
But anyway, this is a view that is common but I have such a hard time understanding why people hold it.
Why, why should the analysis of art (music, paintings, etc) have a detrimental effect upon one's appreciation of it's meaning or beauty?
I have analysed music, film, painings, and drawings in a classroom setting, and this analysis has ALWAYS led to me appreciating the art that much more, because now I understood more of the process by which it was produced.
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 07-08-2006 1:14 AM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 187 of 223 (329808)
07-08-2006 7:06 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by iano
07-08-2006 6:51 AM


quote:
Every detector needs to be calibrated against something absolute in order to ensure the reading on the dial can be trusted. Your calibration cert Miss Schrafinator?
No, this is incorrect.
Calibration of any detector is made to a arbitrary measure, not an absolute one.
My measure is a supremely useful one, invented by us humans, shown over the centuries to give light where before there was the darkness of superstition, fear, ignorance, and myth.
It is the light of rational inquiry.
Like I said, ian, you should really get one.
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by iano, posted 07-08-2006 6:51 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by iano, posted 07-08-2006 7:34 AM nator has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 188 of 223 (329812)
07-08-2006 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by nator
07-08-2006 7:06 AM


Calibration of any detector is made to a arbitrary measure, not an absolute one.
Your right: quasi-absolute, pseudo-absolute, subjective, open to re-definition.
My measure is a supremely useful one, invented by us humans, shown over the centuries to give light where before there was the darkness of superstition, fear, ignorance, and myth.
myth and superstition were also invented by humans. Useful to them as yours is to you now. Different calibration certs - same problem
Its tortoises all the way down
Like I said, ian, you should really get one.
I've been there. For 38 years remember? I thought it was useful. It sure did work well in areas (still does in fact). But like superstition and myth, it has its limitations. Your a young slip of a thing Schraf. Wait a while.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by nator, posted 07-08-2006 7:06 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by nator, posted 07-08-2006 8:13 AM iano has replied
 Message 190 by RickJB, posted 07-08-2006 8:19 AM iano has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 189 of 223 (329817)
07-08-2006 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by iano
07-08-2006 7:34 AM


Calibration of any detector is made to a arbitrary measure, not an absolute one.
quote:
Your right: quasi-absolute, pseudo-absolute, subjective, open to re-definition.
Yes, but only inasmuch as it is shown to to not be useful for it's intended purpose will anything in my detector need to be changed.
My measure is a supremely useful one, invented by us humans, shown over the centuries to give light where before there was the darkness of superstition, fear, ignorance, and myth.
quote:
myth and superstition were also invented by humans.
You are now saying that God was invented by humans?
That is truly surprising.
quote:
Useful to them as yours is to you now. Different calibration certs - same problem
Not as useful to them, ian.
Sacrificing virgins to the volcano god was not useful for what they were hoping to accomplish, but studying volcanoes as natural phenomena is.
Praying to the God for rain was not useful for what they were tring to accomplish, but breeding drought-resistant strains of crops and developing irrigation and soil-conservation technology is.
Like I said, ian, you should really get one.
quote:
I've been there. For 38 years remember? I thought it was useful. It sure did work well in areas (still does in fact). But like superstition and myth, it has its limitations. Your a young slip of a thing Schraf. Wait a while.
Of course it has it's limitations.
But they are far fewer than the intellect-strangling limitations of superstition and myth in the way you've depicted and preached yours here, ian.
That is plain to me.
And please, I am a 38 year old woman. Do not patronize me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by iano, posted 07-08-2006 7:34 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
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RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 190 of 223 (329818)
07-08-2006 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by iano
07-08-2006 7:34 AM


iano writes:
Myth and superstition were also invented by humans. Useful to them as yours is to you now. Different calibration certs - same problem
Its tortoises all the way down
I think you miss Shraf's point, Iano. I'm sure she is well aware that her "BS detector" is subjective and not plugged into some higher "truth".
What you fail to accept is that your own beliefs are subjective too! You have no monopoly on the "truth".....
iano writes:
Your a young slip of a thing Schraf. Wait a while.
This is very, very patronising, Iano.
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by iano, posted 07-08-2006 7:34 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 191 of 223 (329821)
07-08-2006 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by RickJB
07-08-2006 8:19 AM


Her photo suggests 28. Either it was taken a long time ago OR it is heavily photoshopped OR she's doing better for her age than any 38 year old I've ever seen.
No patronising intended.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by RickJB, posted 07-08-2006 8:19 AM RickJB has not replied

Replies to this message:
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 192 of 223 (329823)
07-08-2006 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by iano
07-08-2006 5:27 AM


And, if Christianity is not 'true' , then anything about 'salvation' and what the New Testament says about how God judges people does not matter.
What, in my opinion, does matter, is how Christianity causes people to act. I have found that Evangalistic CHristianity condons lying and deceit, and other unethical practices in the pursuit of 'souls' to save.
One statement that is true, respectively of what else is around is the quote 'By their fruits you will know them'. I will take this to heart, and I will know Evangalistic Christians by their fruit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by iano, posted 07-08-2006 5:27 AM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 193 of 223 (329824)
07-08-2006 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by nator
07-08-2006 8:13 AM


Yes, but only inasmuch as it is shown to to not be useful for it's intended purpose will anything in my detector need to be changed.
So you take your sniffer dog detector, stick some BS in its face and say "thats Bull, now go find me some more"
This sniffer dog chases its tail. It finds what you've taught it to find. Like, if something doesn't fit into the terms of reference you have decided works for you then its bull.
Heavens above!
Sacrificing virgins to the volcano god was not useful for what they were hoping to accomplish, but studying volcanoes as natural phenomena is.
Their use was that it made them feel like things were going to somekind of plan. Sacrifice virgins and the volcano wouldn't erupt. If it did the volcano wasn't happy so sacrifice some prettier ones - and the volcano didn't erupt etc etc. Life went on and everything was fine (although virginity must have been seen as much something to get rid of as quickly as possible - much like these days)
Your use is that you like knowing how volcanos erupt so that people don't have to die. Life in your subjective world view is more precious than it was in the subjective world view then.
Different strokes. Had I been discussing this issue with you then your stance would be the same - the only thing that would be different would be that the a la carte 'menu of use' would have different main courses to chose from.
Nothing new under the sun
But they are far fewer than the intellect-strangling limitations of superstition and myth in the way you've depicted and preached yours here, ian.
You mean things like supposing that 'jealous' need not involve the definition of jealously that you extract from your dictionary? This has less to do with how I depict it and more with you forcing your presumptions (without supporting argument in that case)in the works and sticking your fingers in your ears when someone asks you why it is you picked the one you picked.

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AdminNWR
Inactive Member


Message 194 of 223 (329825)
07-08-2006 10:01 AM


Topic drift alert
It is time for another reminder that this is a thread for individual statements, rather than for debates. Please recheck the OP before posting.
Do not reply to this message here. If you have comments, take them to the appropriate thread.


  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 195 of 223 (329835)
07-08-2006 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by nator
07-08-2006 6:54 AM


Re: Changes to what I believe
schrafinator writes:
But you forget that these are the same people who have been working very hard, for decades now, to get their religious view taught in US public schools.
I don't see where there's been much of a move to bring YEC into public schools. There has been a movement to bring religion in general into the schools so that kids can make up their own minds. When there is no discussion of religion in the schools what is then implied is agnosticism or Atheism.
The movement now is to teach ID. I think it should be introduced as a contrast to evolution without a designer as opposed to evolution with a designer. I'm not suggesting that it is science but I think that students should be exposed to the fact that there are theistic evolutionists as well as atheistic evolutionists and they can make up their own mind. Students should be exposed to many ideas and they shouldn't be constrained by ideas that you don't accept as true.
schrafinator writes:
They do NOT want to keep to themselves. They want to force everyone's children to be as ignorant of modern science as their's are.
From a wider perspective, it DOES impact everyone's life if a significant number of people believe that the Earth is 6000 years old and all of the other stuff that an YEC believes about nature.
How are they attempting to force their beliefs on others. They try to convince others of what they believe. Do you really think that a significant number of people when exposed to the YEC form of creationism and to the evidence of science will be left believing that the world is 6000 years old? I don't.
schrafinator writes:
If these people can believe such baseless things simply because their religious instructors required it of them, then they are that much easier to manipulate and be told what to believe by political leaders, as well. Unquestioning obedience and loyalty are valued much more than critical inquiry and doubt in the YEC camp, as is amply demonstrated here.
People of any belief system from YEC to Atheism tell others what they think should be believed. Everyone has many influences and they make up their own minds. Is it only OK to have the beliefs that you hold expounded in the school system or the political realm. I assume that you are quite happy to have Dawkins read in school so that Atheism is given a hearing.
schrafinator writes:
Lastly, our world is based upon education, science and technology. I do not believe it to be good for a populace to remain ignorant in such a world. We are falling behind in the US in such fields as it is, and the Dover school board case tells me that the YEC's remain determined to keep us from catching up.
I'm not an American, but it seems to me that the US is doing very well in the scientific realm. As an outside observer of your school system it seems to me that a large part of your school system has been dumbed down in order that more kids graduate. The fact that this has happened has nothing to do with religion. However, for those who want to excel you have many of the finest schools in the world. There are not many schools anywhere that can match schools such as MIT and Harvard.
In Dover, as I understand it, there is no one that is suggesting that the teaching of science should be limited. They are suggesting that ID be taught as well. I disagree with ID when it starts to be an alternative to evolution which is what they seem to be doing. I can’t see where it is that big a probem. Is the theory of evolution so weak that it can't stand up to any alternative ideas. I'm not an expert but from what I've seen on this forum I believe it can.
As a non-literalist Christian I'm not upset when things that I don't agree with are taught in schools. I have faith that in the end students will sort out all the information that they get. I have confidence that what I believe can withstand the teaching of other beliefs. Why is it that you are so afraid of having students exposed to beliefs that you don't hold?
To admin: Your post appeared while I was writing this. I tend to think it is somewhat on topic as a great deal of what I have written in this post are things that I've learned from EvC. I would know nothing of the Dover school board and I would be more uncertain about evolution without what I've learned from EvC. Sorry however if you think it is off topic I'll desist from going further with the discussion.
Edited by GDR, : to add last paragraph
Edited by GDR, : to add last paragraph
Edited by GDR, : No reason given.
Edited by GDR, : All edits were to get the last para where I wanted it

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
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