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Author Topic:   Christianity: For entertainment purposes only?
Brian
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 1 of 64 (468175)
05-28-2008 7:18 AM


On Monday May 26th 2008, new legislation that has been described as the biggest shake up in consumer law for over forty years came in to force in the UK.
One of the laws is directly related to the spiritual side of life.
Under the 1951 Fraudulent Mediums Act, prosecutors had to prove that the psychic, medium or faith healer had intended to be fraudulent in order to secure a conviction.
But under the EU Unfair Commercial Practices Directive the onus is now on the person providing the service to prove that they did not intentionally mislead their customers.
This is directly affecting Spiritualist churches in the UK, who now have to inform their congregations that everything they read of hear at their Church is “for entertainment purposes only”.
Here’s the actual requirement in place at a Spiritualist Church.
The information presented in these pages is for entertainment purposes only.
Litz cannot guarantee the accuracy of any reading and does not make 'predictions.'
Any assessments of possibilities and potentials for the future should NOT be considered to be precise and final.
Litz will not knowingly give readings to any person or persons considered to be 'vulnerable' or likely to be impressionable - readings are strictly available to over 18's only.
A tape recording of all private sittings will be kept by Litz for future reference and is no longer available to the sitter due to recent legislative changes.
All contact with Spirit must be considered to be an 'experiment' of a scientific nature and is not a substitute for medical, financial or legal advice.
But, why should it only be Spiritualist churches that are affected by this? Surely all churches should carry this disclaimer as they have about as much proof about the information that they promote as the spiritualists do?
So, should your local church have a “for entertainment purposes only” sign outside their building, and should the minister, priest, pastor, or whatever, inform their congregation that everything they are going to read and hear for the remainder of the service is for entertainment purposes only?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by iano, posted 05-28-2008 7:58 AM Brian has replied
 Message 10 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-28-2008 11:55 AM Brian has replied
 Message 20 by VirtuousGuile, posted 05-29-2008 5:16 AM Brian has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 2 of 64 (468180)
05-28-2008 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
05-28-2008 7:18 AM


But under the EU Unfair Commercial Practices Directive the onus is now on the person providing the service to prove that they did not intentionally mislead their customers.
The easiest way around the problem would be for the church not to charge for it's services. Then the people going to the church wouldn't be customers anymore.
But it raises an interesting question about the promises made by governments.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Brian, posted 05-28-2008 7:18 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Brian, posted 05-28-2008 8:16 AM iano has replied
 Message 5 by Buzsaw, posted 05-28-2008 8:50 AM iano has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 3 of 64 (468183)
05-28-2008 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by iano
05-28-2008 7:58 AM


The easiest way around the problem would be for the church not to charge for it's services.
How long would the RC Church last?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by iano, posted 05-28-2008 7:58 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by iano, posted 05-28-2008 8:30 AM Brian has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 4 of 64 (468184)
05-28-2008 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Brian
05-28-2008 8:16 AM


How long would the RC Church last?
About as long as government. Unfortunately.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Brian, posted 05-28-2008 8:16 AM Brian has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 64 (468185)
05-28-2008 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by iano
05-28-2008 7:58 AM


Church Charges?
The easiest way around the problem would be for the church not to charge for it's services. Then the people going to the church wouldn't be customers anymore.
What church do you go to? I've been in churches for 62 years all over the nation and have never seen or heard of one which leveled a charge for membership or attendance of worship services or worship day classes. Everything has been voluntary. OTO most secularist organizations have dues or fees to participate or join. Many churches also offer free food, clothes, Bibles, help ministries etc, often not limiting these services to churches in the nation in which the church is located. The church I attend has a free food pantry for needy folks and sends Bibles, money and other services abroad for distribution. All of this is provided voluntarily by members and friends of the church.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by iano, posted 05-28-2008 7:58 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by iano, posted 05-28-2008 9:11 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 7 by Brian, posted 05-28-2008 9:59 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 6 of 64 (468186)
05-28-2008 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Buzsaw
05-28-2008 8:50 AM


Re: Church Charges?
What church do you go to? I've been in churches for 62 years all over the nation and have never seen or heard of one which leveled a charge for membership or attendance of worship services or worship day classes.
It was intended to be tongue-in-cheek Buzz. A response in kind to the manner in which Brain posed his OP (I'm sure)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Buzsaw, posted 05-28-2008 8:50 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 7 of 64 (468192)
05-28-2008 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Buzsaw
05-28-2008 8:50 AM


Re: Church Charges?
Bibles, help ministries etc, often not limiting these services to churches in the nation in which the church is located.
Well, the onus should now be on Christian churches to prove that they are not misleading the people that they give Bibles and help to.
For example, claiming that a book provides the answer to eternal life is a claim that the person promoting should be able to prove, if not, then how can that person claim that they aren't misleading the 'consumer'?
I am seriously considering reporting the next Christian preacher who stops me in the street and rattles a collection tin under my nose, then goes on about Jesus. I will play along, get their contact details, then report them to the police for breaking the law. Then we will see how the courts deal with it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Buzsaw, posted 05-28-2008 8:50 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by iano, posted 05-28-2008 10:34 AM Brian has replied
 Message 19 by VirtuousGuile, posted 05-29-2008 5:10 AM Brian has replied
 Message 25 by Buzsaw, posted 05-30-2008 9:55 PM Brian has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 8 of 64 (468197)
05-28-2008 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Brian
05-28-2008 9:59 AM


Re: Church Charges?
Brian writes:
Then we will see how the courts deal with it.
I'd pay good money for a video of the polices response to your 999 call. That's about the only court appearence I'd be envisaging.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Brian, posted 05-28-2008 9:59 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Brian, posted 05-28-2008 11:11 AM iano has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 9 of 64 (468203)
05-28-2008 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by iano
05-28-2008 10:34 AM


Re: Church Charges?
It wouldn't be a 999 call.
Who do you call when you witness someone breaking the law, the police or baby Jesus?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by iano, posted 05-28-2008 10:34 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by iano, posted 05-28-2008 1:46 PM Brian has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 64 (468210)
05-28-2008 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
05-28-2008 7:18 AM


But, why should it only be Spiritualist churches that are affected by this?
Do they charge a fee for their readings?
Surely all churches should carry this disclaimer as they have about as much proof about the information that they promote as the spiritualists do?
But they don't charge anything... Its not a Commercial practice.
So, should your local church have a “for entertainment purposes only” sign outside their building, and should the minister, priest, pastor, or whatever, inform their congregation that everything they are going to read and hear for the remainder of the service is for entertainment purposes only?
Only if they selling something.
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : syntax error

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Brian, posted 05-28-2008 7:18 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Brian, posted 05-28-2008 12:26 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 11 of 64 (468215)
05-28-2008 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by New Cat's Eye
05-28-2008 11:55 AM


Do they charge a fee for their readings?
Some do, some don't. the one I went to doesn't, but there's a collection tray passed round if you wish to donate.
But they don't charge anything... Its not a Commercial practice.
Oh indeed they do charge!
Funerals and weddings are 2 examples. Ministers expect a donation for these 'services'. Getting married before God and all that, well the onus now has to be that the minister should provide proof of this claim.
Only if they selling something.
Like indulgences?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-28-2008 11:55 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-28-2008 12:49 PM Brian has not replied
 Message 30 by SqU1r3, posted 05-31-2008 2:47 PM Brian has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 64 (468217)
05-28-2008 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Brian
05-28-2008 12:26 PM


Some do, some don't. the one I went to doesn't, but there's a collection tray passed round if you wish to donate.
I haven't read the Directive but it seems that it only applies to services that are charged for. Maybe since some do and some don't, the Directive just blankets them all.
Oh indeed they do charge!
Funerals and weddings are 2 examples. Ministers expect a donation for these 'services'. Getting married before God and all that, well the onus now has to be that the minister should provide proof of this claim.
You do get proof that you have been married and that a funeral has been performed.
They could get around the "before god" part by not charging for that service and just charging for the other stuff around it. But it depends on how the Directive is worded.
Only if they selling something.
Like indulgences?
If the church is selling indulgences then they would fall under this Directive and should be labeled as for entertainment only.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Brian, posted 05-28-2008 12:26 PM Brian has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 13 of 64 (468222)
05-28-2008 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Brian
05-28-2008 11:11 AM


M'lud?
Who do you call when you witness someone breaking the law
You mean this law? The one in your OP seems to suppose that the misleading has already been established and the issue has to do with the established misleader proving his misleading wasn't intentional.
Brians OP writes:
But under the EU Unfair Commercial Practices Directive the onus is now on the person providing the service to prove that they did not intentionally mislead their customers.
Imagine I'm the policeman you've called to the scene. Your holding the coin collecting perp by collar awaiting my arrival. You quote the law and say to me....
What precisely?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Brian, posted 05-28-2008 11:11 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-28-2008 2:04 PM iano has not replied
 Message 15 by Brian, posted 05-28-2008 2:19 PM iano has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 64 (468225)
05-28-2008 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by iano
05-28-2008 1:46 PM


Re: M'lud?
the issue has to do with the established misleader proving his misleading wasn't intentional.
How do you prove your intention?
And if it is just proving your intention, then I take back that churches should have the sign for selling indulgences because if they aren't intending to mislead people (and truly elieve in the indulgence) then they wouldn't be going against the Directive.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by iano, posted 05-28-2008 1:46 PM iano has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 15 of 64 (468228)
05-28-2008 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by iano
05-28-2008 1:46 PM


Re: M'lud?
The one in your OP seems to suppose that the misleading has already been established and the issue has to do with the established misleader proving his misleading wasn't intentional.
So are you saying that ALL psychics, Spiritualists, Faith healers etc are ALL intentionally misleading people?
If it was as simple as saying that you firmly believe that what you are selling is real then no one would be breaking the law. AS I read it, the onus has moved from having to prove the psychic (and others) are not providing a genuine product to the psychic etc now having to prove that what they provide is genuine. Since they cannot prove that they are passing messages on from the dead, then they now have to state that what they do is for entertainment purposes. Now, I do not see any difference between a tarot card reader charging a few quid for a reading and a church minister claiming that your dearly departed will now be skipping about the clouds with the baby Jesus.
Imagine I'm the policeman you've called to the scene. Your holding the coin collecting perp by collar awaiting my arrival. You quote the law and say to me....
What precisely?
But that isn't the way it would go.
I said I'd take the person's contact details, I would then go to the police, or phone them, and make a complaint. I would tell the police officer that I believe that a law has been broken and give them the details. Since a complaint has been made the police are obliged to interview the person that the complaint has been made about.
If you are at a 'psychic night' and someone is claiming to give you a message from a dead relative and doesn't state that the information is for information purposes only, then who do you inform about this criminal offence?
Edited by Brian, : spelling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by iano, posted 05-28-2008 1:46 PM iano has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-28-2008 2:47 PM Brian has replied

  
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