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Author Topic:   the new and improved obama thread
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 166 of 237 (460636)
03-17-2008 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Buzsaw
03-17-2008 8:55 AM


as his Muslim schooling as a child
What Muslim schooling Buz? Are you going to continue to lie that Obama went to an Islamic school?

soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 167 of 237 (460641)
03-17-2008 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by LinearAq
03-17-2008 12:16 PM


Rahvin writes:
quote:
It's true that there is a disproportionately large population of blacks currently in prison.
It's true that there are systematic policies even now im place that work to oppress blacks in many areas of the country, apparently including Chicago.
It's true that schools are becoming more and more segregated according to race.
Is it racist to point these things out, and be angry about them? By the definition of racism, sure - it's just a discrimination based on race. But it's not factually incorrect.
By saying these 3 things are true, are you saying, as Wright seems to be, that WASP America has engineered these solely as a means to keep black people from achieving financial/social success?
Not at all, and I don't think Wright is saying that either. From what I've read (and again, I dont have a full transcript, so it's very difficult for me to ascertain what he's actually saying), it sounds more like he's decrying all of the policies that have been put in place agains blacks, and the continued social disproportionalities that exist today.
To a degree, that is the fault of those who "run the show." Numerically speaking, that does constitute white males. It's not, however, solely the fault of white males. Racial issues in our society are incredibly complex - you can't really place "blame" effectively. It's a collective issue that we all need to work on improving: blacks whites, and every other race.
Where's the evidence of causality?
Are these results caused only or even mostly by racism?
If the causality link cannot be established, what makes Wright's anger toward white America justified? Without that link isn't he just doing the everything's-a-conspiracy dance, like the supporters of homeopathy?
Who says they have to be connected in any way? One can express anger at the fact that black populations in the US are more often poor, are more often in jail, are less often educated, etc without saying that those things are the direct result of racism. There's a lot more at play in those societal issues, I think. But when there are cases of policies that systematically discriminate against the poor (who are more likely to be black), can you really blame him for being angry?
I'm very distressed by the fact that there are so many black males in prison compared to whites. I have no idea whether this is casued by an issue of culture, poverty, racial discrimination, education, or a combination of one or more of these and other factors, but I'm still appalled and upset that so many black males are in prison.
Again - this is very difficult to discuss without a full transcript of what Rev. Wright actually said. I feel like I'm flying half-blind here - all I have to go on are the most-offensive of his comments as reported by such dubious outles as Fox News. I'm defending his comments even without context because I have seen the way that blacks are treated in some parts of this country. Saying "racism isn't dead" is like saying the Himalayas "aren't exactly hills."
I'm not foolish enough to think that racism is dead in this country. I believe it exists somewhat in the government and justice system. Just not to the outlandish degree that Wright contends.
I'm not so sure about that. As a white male who grew up in an environment where I never even met a non-white, non-Christian until I was 12 years old, and lived even after that in primarily "white" areas, I didn't think racism was a very large problem either. Then I spent a year in the South, and worked with a few black individuals - it's really appalling when you start to see, with your own eyes, how large a problem racism is.
BTW: Obama stated that he was not aware of the more inflammatory statements of Wright. Yet, he stated at the beginning of his presidential campaign the Wright was his mentor. It's confusing that he would not be aware of his mentor's opinions on racial inequality.
Not really. I have a couple of teachers I would qualify as "mentors," but I honestly have no idea what their positions are on certain matters, even ones as large as racial inequality. Hell, I don't even know what my own parents' position is on evolution/creation! Even someone you're very close to may have opinions you don't agree with, and aren't even aware of.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 168 of 237 (460647)
03-17-2008 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Rahvin
03-17-2008 3:35 PM


Again - this is very difficult to discuss without a full transcript of what Rev. Wright actually said.
I'm still trying to track down a video of the entire speech (of which the clip I transcribed is only a small part).
None of the news sites (CNN, MSNBC, FOX, etc.) has anything but a couple of quotes.
I'm not so sure about that. As a white male who grew up in an environment where I never even met a non-white, non-Christian until I was 12 years old, and lived even after that in primarily "white" areas, I didn't think racism was a very large problem either. Then I spent a year in the South, and worked with a few black individuals - it's really appalling when you start to see, with your own eyes, how large a problem racism is.
Hear, hear, Rahvin.
I grew up in a small town south of the Mason-Dixon. It wasn't until college that I met a person of another race.
And it wasn't until I moved to Brooklyn that I got the chance to see the enormous problems faced by black and brown folks. It is beyond appalling.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Rahvin, posted 03-17-2008 3:35 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 169 of 237 (460651)
03-17-2008 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Rahvin
03-17-2008 3:35 PM


Rahvin,
I just did an exhaustive search and found only 2 videos, one of which I transcribed earlier.
It turns out ABC News bought dozens of Rev. Wright's sermons from the Trinity United Church of Christ.
Here's ABC's report:
Obama's Pastor: God Damn America, U.S. to Blame for 9/11 - ABC News
Here's the link to the sermons:
Page not found – Trinity United Church of Christ
Unless one of us is willing to drop some $$$ on the church, there is simply no other way to find out what Rev. Wright "really" said.

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 170 of 237 (460659)
03-17-2008 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Buzsaw
03-17-2008 8:55 AM


Racist is racist is racist and you cannot allow for one definition to accommodate racism for one race while at the same time holding another race to a higher standard.
I don't hold differing definitions and freely point to where and when anybody makes a racist comment. For example I have already stated that Farrakan is racist. Regarding Wright, I mentioned what I saw him doing. He was engaging in classism, opportunism, and I would add Rahvin's description of conspiracy theorizing.
I can agree that I would not want Wright running for President. I can also agree that Obama's having listened to this guy both surprises and disappoints me. If you want, I can even agree that his connection to Wright gives someone a reason to wonder what he's about and do some checking.
But that's where it ends, and you have done no such checking. You clearly have not tried to understand why Obama might have gone to that church and stayed there, even if he wasn't 100% with the minister's opinions. You haven't even tried to understand why Wright might have the opinions, or make the statements he does. Again, I think this is shameful conduct for you.
one could say one must understand the South's experience to justify slavery and segregation.
Well... I WOULD say you must understand what was going on in the south in order to understand why slavery and segregation existed and was felt justified by the people involved. However, the experiences of oppressors is different than those who have been oppressed. I feel a bit more sympathy for Wright's errant position, stemming from real racism against blacks, than the those who held slaves or oppressed blacks.
Just who is this Wright professing Christian man who courts and honors Nation of Islam's leaders
Again, this is simply showing your ignorance. What you are discussing is an issue of politics and power among the black community, particularly in Chicago. It existed before the rise of Islamic militancy and will likely go on well after that ends.
You keep stating that questions are being raised. Why are you not seeking answers? People are attempting to give them to you (even Obama) but you keep waiting around saying there are questions. It is my opinion that you are simply waiting for any answer EXCEPT that Obama is not an Islamic anti-american person. And you will keep waiting because such an answer will not come, yet add any new issue which might seem to raise yet another question.
Just who is Obama who likes the likes and of Wright and obviously likes what he's been propagating for 23 years to his people?
I've watched the debates as well as his interviews. Are you incapable of forming an opinion of the man based on his words and actions, or must it always be about the hints of conspiracy?
If Wright is a racist, for acting irate about issues you feel have already been dealt with... what does that make you for slamming a black man who has not said such things, and denounces such things, simply because of his race and his father's religion?

h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

This message is a reply to:
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 171 of 237 (460733)
03-18-2008 3:36 PM


Transcript of Obama Speech
Re: Obama's response to the Rev. Wright brouhaha.
Transcript of Obama's speech - CNN.com

Replies to this message:
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 172 of 237 (460749)
03-18-2008 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by molbiogirl
03-18-2008 3:36 PM


Re: Transcript of Obama Speech
I was lucky enough to catch the speech on the radio.
First off, the Wright issue was a non-issue that conservatives turned into a wedge issue and it would have been the politically safe road to take to let this issue go the way of the public's short term memory.
But Obama didn't do that. He faced this issue head on and used this manufactured controversy to take the discourse to a high level. My only regret is that his entire speech will not be given the proper treatment in the media and will be sliced and diced which will reduce its impact.
You really have to take the whole thing and if you can, look it up on youtube or something to listen to the whole thing. Its a world of difference reading it versus listening to him deliver it. After 8 years of barely high school level oratory, it is so refreshing to think that we might have a president who can actually be the pride of America rather than the abject disgrace that has been the administrations of the past 28 years.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

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Replies to this message:
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 173 of 237 (460764)
03-18-2008 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by molbiogirl
03-18-2008 3:36 PM


Re: Transcript of Obama Speech
Before that speech, Obama already had my vote because I liked him more than the alternatives.
After that speech, he has my vote no matter who is running against him. I certainly don't agree with him on everything, but I feel like for the first time I'm not accepting the lesser of two evils, but instead I actually want this guy to be the President.

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Grizz
Member (Idle past 5471 days)
Posts: 318
Joined: 06-08-2007


Message 174 of 237 (460769)
03-18-2008 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Jazzns
03-18-2008 5:13 PM


Re: Transcript of Obama Speech
I look at it this way -- what Obama really believes about Wright's opinions is something we will never know for sure. On the campaign trail, speeches and sound bites are all highly choreographed and staged events specifically designed to sway public opinion, garner support, or counter negative PR. They are not designed to be platforms to lay bare one's soul.
The reality is, if politicians told the complete truth and said what was really on their mind, nobody would vote for them. I do not claim to know what Obama thinks or believes on these issues(or McCain or Clinton or any other candidate.) It is possible what he is presenting to the public for consumption truly reflects his private views. Then again, perhaps it is not. Who knows. Most people won't care as long as the right thing is said to the right audience. That's how elections are won.
Like everyone else, the only thing we have to go by are the sound bites and speeches presented to us along with the candidate's public record. Both are easily manipulated by the press using selective editing and presentation.
As most everyone will have some dirty laundry that could be aired out and used against one in the public eye, I tend to ignore these type of inevitable squabbles unless they are obviously a serious and grave issue. With Obama, it is a bit more difficult to judge him on merit or qualifications as his time in the Senate has been slim and his voting record is sparse. I really don't know what to make of the guy. Race is something that has not even entered into my mind and has nothing to do with my questions or opinions formed to this point.
He obviously is very articulate, intelligent, and well educated; but does he have the experience and 'political' talent to really sway the opposition in Congress and get things accomplished? At this point, I am a bit skeptical whether or not he can really be effective and bring about the type of significant change he is calling for. I don't know how to answer this. If Obama is the candidate, the debates with McCain will likely reveal more.
I want someone who can really get something done. Can he do it better than Clinton or McCain? That is the only thing I care about. He could turn out to be a Kennedy or he could be a one-term lame duck like Carter. It's a crapshoot IMO.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 175 of 237 (460770)
03-18-2008 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by molbiogirl
03-18-2008 3:36 PM


Re: Transcript of Obama Speech
Thanks for that. It might be noted that near the top of the page is a link to "videos" which include some other discussions of the issue, including an interview with Obama on CNN.
To Buz: please read the entire transcript and tell me how, as a christian and an American, you feel his words indicate anything but positive intentions for this nation. These are HIS words. How would you judge them?

h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

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Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 176 of 237 (460771)
03-18-2008 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by Grizz
03-18-2008 6:51 PM


Re: Transcript of Obama Speech
He could turn out to be a Kennedy....
You mean killed early on and then canonized as a saint? That's what a lot of black folk are thinking, actually.
-
...he could be a one-term lame duck like Carter.
You mean an intelligent and far-sighted President whose policies, no matter how obviously necessary and correct, will be ridiculed and resisted until he's ejected from the political scene? That's what I expect, actually.

Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and demand; it is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws of justice and mercy. -- Wendell Berry

This message is a reply to:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 177 of 237 (460772)
03-18-2008 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by Grizz
03-18-2008 6:51 PM


Re: Transcript of Obama Speech
Like everyone else, the only thing we have to go by are the sound bites and speeches presented to us along with the candidate's public record. Both are easily manipulated by the press using selective editing and presentation.
How was the transcript Molbio linked to "easily manipulated"? Even if one wanted to have doubts as to whether he truly feels deep down in some hidden part of his brain everything that he expressed... isn't his message the right one we need in the public arena at this time? Isn't it the kind of inspirational message we ought to have coming out of the White House?
I agree the most important issue is whether he has the right plan and the ability to push it through. But I don't see C or McC as showing any more promise than he does on that score (which is not to diminish them, but to state how lucky we could be at this time). On top of credentials (which I feel are equal enough) Obama has a message neither of the others are pushing, and a palpable charisma neither possess. I can't stand some of his positions, but on the main I agree with him, and he is a person I'd be more willing to compromise with. That might be true for other members of the gov't. What rep will compromise with Hillary, how many would support McCain? Obama's lack of time in office, might be seen less as a lack of experience and more of a lack of entrenched interests from either party.

h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 178 of 237 (460774)
03-18-2008 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Silent H
03-18-2008 6:54 PM


Re: Transcript of Obama Speech
To Buz: please read the entire transcript and tell me how, as a christian and an American, you feel his words indicate anything but positive intentions for this nation. These are HIS words. How would you judge them?
You know, I feel like I'm reading the science forums. The truth has already be determined; all facts will be shoe-horned into the consistency with the predetermined truth, and any inconvenient fact will be ignored.

Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and demand; it is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws of justice and mercy. -- Wendell Berry

This message is a reply to:
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Grizz
Member (Idle past 5471 days)
Posts: 318
Joined: 06-08-2007


Message 179 of 237 (460776)
03-18-2008 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Chiroptera
03-18-2008 7:04 PM


Re: Transcript of Obama Speech
You mean killed early on and then canonized as a saint? That's what a lot of black folk are thinking, actually.
Kennedy as holding high popularity and success with the public. A new Camelot.
...he could be a one-term lame duck like Carter.
You mean an intelligent and far-sighted President whose policies, no matter how obviously necessary and correct, will be ridiculed and resisted until he's ejected from the political scene? That's what I expect, actually.
That is correct. Carter's main problem was his laid back personality and demeanor and his misfortune of being President at the wrong time in US history. Politics is all about image and perception.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Chiroptera, posted 03-18-2008 7:04 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Grizz
Member (Idle past 5471 days)
Posts: 318
Joined: 06-08-2007


Message 180 of 237 (460777)
03-18-2008 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Silent H
03-18-2008 7:04 PM


Re: Transcript of Obama Speech
I agree the most important issue is whether he has the right plan and the ability to push it through. But I don't see C or McC as showing any more promise than he does on that score (which is not to diminish them, but to state how lucky we could be at this time). On top of credentials (which I feel are equal enough) Obama has a message neither of the others are pushing, and a palpable charisma neither possess. I can't stand some of his positions, but on the main I agree with him, and he is a person I'd be more willing to compromise with. That might be true for other members of the gov't. What rep will compromise with Hillary, how many would support McCain? Obama's lack of time in office, might be seen less as a lack of experience and more of a lack of entrenched interests from either party.
I understand, but being around for a while I am less concerned with messages than with the ability to put them into practice. Anyone can relay a message that strikes a chord. How many of us would like to hear from a politcian - "I know my chances of doing this are slim. All I can promise is I will try to the last." Such a response would Garner my vote in a heartbeat.
I aggree his lack of experience may be an asset. Voters are obviously tired of corruption and scandal and he may be seen as relatively untainted by the trappings of power and special interest.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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