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Author Topic:   the new and improved obama thread
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 151 of 237 (460521)
03-15-2008 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Chiroptera
03-15-2008 8:36 PM


Re: the Arabian Candidate
I think I remember that thread as if seen through a glass darkly. Wishing it would go away, apparently did not make it leave.
What's interesting is how he ended that post...
Perhaps I have it all wrong, but I'm going to be watching him and listening to what he says closely.
And you know that's all I'm asking Buz to do. Watch HIM closely and listen to what HE says closely. Apparently Buz's eyes and ears have lost their focus... or perhaps Obama's commentary and actions just weren't exciting enough, engaging enough... inflammatory enough.
Edited by Silent H, : him to buz

h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Chiroptera, posted 03-15-2008 8:36 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 152 of 237 (460522)
03-15-2008 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Buzsaw
03-15-2008 5:43 PM


Re: Obama and the Rev. Wright
...count the number of times in the first tape which Wright says the word's black and white ...
Black = 7 times.
White = 6 times.
Martin Luther King's "I Have a Dream" speech?
Black = 4 times.
White = 14 times.
MLK! Oh! You are such a racist!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Buzsaw, posted 03-15-2008 5:43 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Buzsaw, posted 03-16-2008 9:43 AM molbiogirl has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 153 of 237 (460534)
03-16-2008 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by molbiogirl
03-15-2008 10:24 PM


Re: Obama and the Rev. Wright
Mobiogirl, this isn't the Civil Rights days. Even Obama was obliged to denounce Wright's racist statements now that it becomes political expedient for him to do so when interview by Fox News. Fox was extremely easy on him, imo.
If you can't discern racism in just the segment which you cited, you're blind to what racism is.
Have you figured out exactly how many rich white people have run this country since it's inception, including all segments of government? Why does this man think he needs to fan the racist fires after so much has been done to end it?
Wright should know that during the days of slavery in America and all through human history slavery has been a fact of life. It still prevails big time in some Muslim nation and places like China etc, but not in the US of A where Wright and his people have enjoyed the blessings of America, the land so many have longed for.
Then too, why is Obama's church allowed so much political activism? Can you imagine the outcry if Falwell's church engaged in all of that? Why hasn't Obama been decrying that during this past decade of his political career?
Imo Fox's Major Garrett was easy on Obama when he interviewed him this past weekend.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by molbiogirl, posted 03-15-2008 10:24 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 154 of 237 (460535)
03-16-2008 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Buzsaw
03-16-2008 9:43 AM


Re: Obama and the Rev. Wright
If you can't discern racism in just the segment which you cited, you're blind to what racism is.
Sorry, buster.
It's your nonsensical claim.
You have to support it.
Not me.
The mere mention of inequity in this country is not racist.
Have you figured out exactly how many rich white people have run this country since it's inception, including all segments of government?
The 4th black governor was elected this year. Fourth.
As of 1990, 300 black mayors had been elected. (FYI -- there are 25,375 cities/towns in the U.S. -- so even if all 300 were to have served all at once, that would still be only .01%.)
7% of the judges in this country are black.
Pathetic. Absolutely pathetic.
Wright should know that during the days of slavery in America and all through human history slavery has been a fact of life.
This is irrelevant.
Can you imagine the outcry if Falwell's church engaged in all of that? Why hasn't Obama been decrying that during this past decade of his political career?
You're kidding, right?
NYT writes:
Financial records show that the Rev. Jerry Falwell has transferred over $6.7 million from his political contributors to his religious ministries in the past three years, The News & Daily Advance of Lynchburg says.
Falwell Political Funds Shifted to Religious Arms - The New York Times
Moral Majority ring a bell? The Liberty Foundation?
Mobiogirl, this isn't the Civil Rights days.
I don't even know what this means.
Racism -- overt, in-your-face racism -- is a fact of life in the U.S. Racist thinking (stereotypes and prejudice), social racism (segregation and redlining), and institutional racism are rampant.
I'd like to just briefly mention 2 examples off the top of my head:
Two of the country's foremost researchers on race and capital punishment, law professor David Baldus and statistician George Woodworth, along with colleagues in Philadelphia, have conducted a careful analysis of race and the death penalty in Philadelphia which reveals that the odds of receiving a death sentence are nearly four times (3.9) higher if the defendant is black. These results were obtained after analyzing and controlling for case differences such as the severity of the crime and the background of the defendant. The data were subjected to various forms of analysis, but the conclusion was clear: blacks were being sentenced to death far in excess of other defendants for similar crimes.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=539&scid=45
Public schools in the United States are becoming more racially segregated and the trend is likely to accelerate because of a Supreme Court decision in June, according to report published Wednesday.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.../08/29/AR2007082902111.html
Section I: Racial Steering, Closed Doors, and Lost Homes: Documenting Housing
Discrimination and its Roots....................................................................................................5
Real Estate Sales Discrimination.........................................................................................5
Rental Discrimination in the Wake of Hurricane Katrina............................................17
Other Fair Housing Concerns in 2006...............................................................................17
Section II: Housing Discrimination Complaints for 2006................................................26
Section III: A Broken System - Enforcement of the Fair Housing Act..........................30
Addressing Less than One Percent of Violations...........................................................30
Case Study: Racial Discrimination...................................................................................34
Federal Obligation to “Affirmatively Further Fair Housing”.....................................34
Fair Housing Initiatives Program: Private Efforts Are Underfunded........................36
Page not found - NFHA
Pointing this out is not "racism".
Edited by molbiogirl, : stats

This message is a reply to:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 155 of 237 (460549)
03-16-2008 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Buzsaw
03-16-2008 9:43 AM


Re: Obama and the Rev. Wright
Even Obama was obliged to denounce Wright's racist statements now that it becomes political expedient for him to do so
This is false witness again. Obama stated that he was not aware of the commentary by Wright, and had not been present at the time. You appear to be claiming he is lying.
Why does this man think he needs to fan the racist fires after so much has been done to end it?
He is a black preacher at a black church in Chicago. He is not fanning racist fires but playing up a context his congregation understands and would relate to.
I find your lack of insight on this stunning. Xians and Jews have continued throughout the millenia to remind themselves and everyone else how horrible the Egyptians were, the Romans were, and continually fearmonger about other people that do not believe or live as they do. Heck, Passion plays are still popular, eh?
So to not understand a black pastor using the feeling of oppression that his community of Xians have felt more recently (and still do to some extent) is really bizarre.
As it stands, can you show me where Wright was advocating that the USA be overthrown? You can criticize him for whining, perhaps opportunism, or as molbio aptly suggested for classism, but its a stretch to say he was advocating racism, or stoking the fires of racism.
And finally, what does any of this have to do with Obama? Have you found any statement by Obama which mirrors any of the statements or actions by Wright? Obama is not by any means a divisive or inflammatory person. About the only thing he has said which could be found that way, has been in support of Xianity and Israel.
Your guilt by association is really upsetting to me when we could have such a clean race with excellent candidates. I might add that it is clearly errant. Clinton also went to church where the ministers promoted fidelity. He gave them money and he praised their message. He was also one of the most unfaithful people around.
You shouldn't be judging a person in the first place. But if you do, at least do it by what the person says and does themself.
Imo Fox's Major Garrett was easy on Obama when he interviewed him this past weekend.
Perhaps he should have broken out the whip? No wait, it was the branding iron, right? Mark him for all to see as a Black Muslim Extremist?
Edited by Silent H, : -this
Edited by Silent H, : iron

h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Buzsaw, posted 03-16-2008 9:43 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Chiroptera, posted 03-16-2008 2:54 PM Silent H has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 156 of 237 (460553)
03-16-2008 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Silent H
03-16-2008 2:27 PM


Re: Obama and the Rev. Wright
I find your lack of insight on this stunning. Xians and Jews have continued throughout the millenia to remind themselves and everyone else how horrible the Egyptians were, the Romans were, and continually fearmonger about other people that do not believe or live as they do. Heck, Passion plays are still popular, eh?
Holy shit! How could we have forgotten how Mel Gibson's snuff film, The Passion of Christ, (and the Gospel of John, for that matter) was defended against charges of anti-Semitism?
Good point, H. Motes and beams, indeed.

Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and demand; it is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws of justice and mercy. -- Wendell Berry

This message is a reply to:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 157 of 237 (460592)
03-16-2008 10:13 PM


Just a couple of thoughts on Wright's views.
I remember growing up in fifties and developing an interest in pop music. A couple of the music types at the time were early rock n roll and doo wop. Both of these styles of music were pioneered by black musicians yet on the radio I would hear Pat Boone or Elvis sing Little Richard's Long Tall Sally. I would hear groups like the Diamonds sing Little Darling instead of hearing the original group the Gladiolas singing it. Radio stations promoted white musicians over black musicians. Sure there were exceptions but it was generally the case.There was a mixed race group called the Del Vikings that came out of the US military that had to stay in separate hotels. There were separate bathrooms for blacks, and we all know who had to go to the "back of the bus". Fortuanately that has all changed but it still has to burn in the hearts of black people who still remember those days.
My point is that Dr. Wright grew up in a very different world that what we have today. It is not surprising that he views things in a way that no longer resonates with many people. Sure I find his remarks repugnant but I guess I can also sympathize with how his past has formed him.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Silent H, posted 03-16-2008 11:11 PM GDR has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 158 of 237 (460597)
03-16-2008 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by GDR
03-16-2008 10:13 PM


My point is that Dr. Wright grew up in a very different world that what we have today. It is not surprising that he views things in a way that no longer resonates with many people.
I agree and that is what I was trying to get across to Buz. Particularly in Chicago, blacks have had a very raw deal. The city is STILL heavily segregated, and despite any progress the wounds of just 20-50 years ago are not likely healed given the continuing depressed state of their neighborhoods.
Mayor Daley (whose son now runs the city) had police attacking blacks, and that was a very big thing. So was the practice of "red-lining" which trapped blacks in squalor (wealthier blacks could not improve their neighborhoods if they wanted), while the poorest were packed into some of the most notorious slums in the US.
It takes someone wholly ignorant of the black experience, particularly that in Chicago, to view Wright as simply a racist... or that people attending his church must agree with everything he says.
Edited by Silent H, : 3 to 5, and 25 or 6 to 4

h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by GDR, posted 03-16-2008 10:13 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 160 by Buzsaw, posted 03-17-2008 8:55 AM Silent H has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 159 of 237 (460600)
03-17-2008 1:03 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by Silent H
03-16-2008 11:11 PM


Silent H writes:
It takes someone wholly ignorant of the black experience, particularly that in Chicago, to view Wright as simply a racist... or that people attending his church must agree with everything he says.
I grew up in western Canada, (Medicine Hat, Alberta) with no contact at all with any of the Black population. I wasn't even aware of what racism was. It was only later that I learned of how different my experience was than that of people like Dr. Wright.
I was totally accepted within the culture that I grew up in. I have to think that I would be a very different person than what I am if I had grown up in his shoes.
quote:
Luke 12:48
But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
As a Christian I can't see how I am in any position to stand in condemnation of Dr. Wright no matter how much I disagree with his views.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Silent H, posted 03-16-2008 11:11 PM Silent H has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 160 of 237 (460613)
03-17-2008 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by Silent H
03-16-2008 11:11 PM


SH writes:
It takes someone wholly ignorant of the black experience, particularly that in Chicago, to view Wright as simply a racist... or that people attending his church must agree with everything he says.
That argument is 100% bogus. Racist is racist is racist and you cannot allow for one definition to accommodate racism for one race while at the same time holding another race to a higher standard.
By your argument one could say one must understand the South's experience to justify slavery and segregation.
You still have Wright's problem with his close ties to the Nation of Islam relative to Obama's childhood Muslim life with his dad and stepdad as well as his Muslim schooling as a child. Just who is this Wright professing Christian man who courts and honors Nation of Islam's leaders; those people who spew out hatred for America, black power and the Jews, etc? Just who is Obama who likes the likes and of Wright and obviously likes what he's been propagating for 23 years to his people? Those are the questions which remain unanswered. Are we willing to gamble our high office of commander in chief of our armed forces and a third of our government's alleged balance of power on this questionable person?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Silent H, posted 03-16-2008 11:11 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 161 of 237 (460621)
03-17-2008 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by Buzsaw
03-17-2008 8:55 AM


That argument is 100% bogus. Racist is racist is racist and you cannot allow for one definition to accommodate racism for one race while at the same time holding another race to a higher standard.
Who cares if it's racist? All that matters is whether his statements are factually correct. Are blacks, on the whole, mistreated severely in Chicago? Yes! Now,I'll agree that a lot of what Rev. Wright has said is sketchy conspiracy theory at best, and outright falsehoods at worst - like the insinuation that HIV was developed by the government to combat "people of color."
But some of what he says is true. The words "god damn America" are certainly going to rile up anyone who holds patriotism above looking at what was actually said, ("he doesn't wear the lapel pin," anyone?) but when he's talking about the widespread, systematic oppression of blacks in America (some of which was false, some of which was very true), can you honestly say that you wouldn't have a similar perspective if those things had happened to you, or your family members, or even simply people of your race?
It's true that there is a disproportionately large population of blacks currently in prison.
It's true that there are systematic policies even now im place that work to oppress blacks in many areas of the country, apparently including Chicago.
It's true that schools are becoming more and more segregated according to race.
Is it racist to point these things out, and be angry about them? By the definition of racism, sure - it's just a discrimination based on race. But it's not factually incorrect. Technically speaking, Martin Luther King Jr's "I have a dream" speach was "racist" because it discussed race.
Racism is not inherantly bad - in cases like civil rights activists such as MLK, or simple statistical analasys of racial distribution in socioeconomic backgrounds, education, prison, etc, distinctions along racial lines will become apparent and be discussed.
Racism becomes bad when one race proclaims superiority over another, or judges a person based on their race and no further information.
There's a large difference. Rev. Wright is not proclaiming "black superiority." He's expressing his outrage at the continuing systematic oppression of blacks in the country. I'll agree that some of the actions he's decrying are along conspiracy-theorist nutjob lines. But a lot of it is very true, and I'd say he's perfectly justified in being upset.
You still have Wright's problem with his close ties to the Nation of Islam relative to Obama's childhood Muslim life with his dad and stepdad as well as his Muslim schooling as a child. Just who is this Wright professing Christian man who courts and honors Nation of Islam's leaders; those people who spew out hatred for America, black power and the Jews, etc? Just who is Obama who likes the likes and of Wright and obviously likes what he's been propagating for 23 years to his people? Those are the questions which remain unanswered. Are we willing to gamble our high office of commander in chief of our armed forces and a third of our government's alleged balance of power on this questionable person?
Amazing. I was just discussing this yesterday with my girlfriend, and I said "At least this might finally eliminate that bullshit about Obama being a Muslim. But then again, I wonder how many complete morons will find some way to believe both."
And here you are, Buz.
I don't care what religion the President is, Buz. The Constitution doesn't care, either - in fact, the Constitution says it's irrelevant.
All of this "ZOMG he's a Muslim!" fearmongering is the idiotic Red Scare all over again. You're just another version of McCarthy, accusing people of being a Communist on the barest hint of leaning in that direction - like having a name that's distincively of Muslim origin.
You want the truth? I would vote for Obama even if he was a Muslim, because your whackjob conspiracy theory about Muslims trying to take over the world is nothing more than fearmongering on your part. Not all Muslims are terrorists, Buz. Hell, if you really want to go down that idiotic road, all Christians must be terrorists, too!
Christians comprise the entirety of the KKK, and they have certainly been a terrorist organization in the past, when they could get away with property damage and murder.
Timothy McVeigh was a Christian, and he blew up the Oklahoma City Federal building.
Do you really want a Christian running the country, Buz?
Honestly, your fearmongering and paranoia are the base, instincual reactions of an animal who was hurt by one human, and is now afraid of all humans.
You haven't even named a single policy of Obama's that you disagree with, from what I've seen. If all you can attack is this idiot strawman/red herring regarding his religion, or some opinions regarding his pastor that he's already said he doesn't agree with, then you aren't going to be very effective.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Buzsaw, posted 03-17-2008 8:55 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by molbiogirl, posted 03-17-2008 11:34 AM Rahvin has replied
 Message 164 by LinearAq, posted 03-17-2008 12:16 PM Rahvin has replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 162 of 237 (460622)
03-17-2008 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Rahvin
03-17-2008 11:28 AM


Rahvin,
Do you have a link for the HIV quote?
The only "reliable" source I can find is FOX news (and the WorldNutDaily).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Rahvin, posted 03-17-2008 11:28 AM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 163 of 237 (460625)
03-17-2008 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by molbiogirl
03-17-2008 11:34 AM


Rahvin,
Do you have a link for the HIV quote?
The only "reliable" source I can find is FOX news (and the WorldNutDaily).
That's the same level of reliability as where I've seen it. Honestly, I'm having trouble finding an actual transcript. If anybody finds one, please do tell.
I'm treating the statements as accurate until I see a transcript lacking them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by molbiogirl, posted 03-17-2008 11:34 AM molbiogirl has not replied

  
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 164 of 237 (460626)
03-17-2008 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Rahvin
03-17-2008 11:28 AM


Rahvin writes:
It's true that there is a disproportionately large population of blacks currently in prison.
It's true that there are systematic policies even now im place that work to oppress blacks in many areas of the country, apparently including Chicago.
It's true that schools are becoming more and more segregated according to race.
Is it racist to point these things out, and be angry about them? By the definition of racism, sure - it's just a discrimination based on race. But it's not factually incorrect.
By saying these 3 things are true, are you saying, as Wright seems to be, that WASP America has engineered these solely as a means to keep black people from achieving financial/social success?
Where's the evidence of causality?
Are these results caused only or even mostly by racism?
If the causality link cannot be established, what makes Wright's anger toward white America justified? Without that link isn't he just doing the everything's-a-conspiracy dance, like the supporters of homeopathy?
I'm not foolish enough to think that racism is dead in this country. I believe it exists somewhat in the government and justice system. Just not to the outlandish degree that Wright contends.
BTW: Obama stated that he was not aware of the more inflammatory statements of Wright. Yet, he stated at the beginning of his presidential campaign the Wright was his mentor. It's confusing that he would not be aware of his mentor's opinions on racial inequality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Rahvin, posted 03-17-2008 11:28 AM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
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Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 165 of 237 (460633)
03-17-2008 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Buzsaw
03-17-2008 8:55 AM


At last you say something I can agree with;
You still have Wright's problem with his close ties to the Nation of Islam
That's right, it's Wright's problem, not Obama's. They are different people you know. Wright is not standing; Obama is. For all I know, you may slavishly accept every single word that is said in your preferred place of worship, but believe it or not, not everyone is so lacking in critical faculties.
Maybe these scare tactics would work better if you just typed "muslim,muslim,muslim" in small type at the bottom of each of your posts.

Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
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