Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 59 (9164 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,929 Year: 4,186/9,624 Month: 1,057/974 Week: 16/368 Day: 16/11 Hour: 0/4


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   How was the Great Pyramid built?
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 4024 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 61 of 66 (387657)
03-01-2007 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by jar
03-01-2007 10:58 AM


Re: Concrete?
Nah, it is classic tentativity. He has presented his best case. So far he has not convinced either me or most Egyptologists. Casting is a neat idea, but doesn't explain all the evidence. Why did they find whole metal working areas with all the evidence of casting and reworking bronze and copper tools used to shape and finish quarried blocks? Why have they not found areas on site for casting concrete blocks?
Ever tried working the harder rocks with bronze or copper? My tempered steel Estwing pick needs re-sharpening after a fortnight`s trip.
The blocks were cast with movable boxing on or near situ. IOW, right on the pyramid itself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by jar, posted 03-01-2007 10:58 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by kuresu, posted 03-01-2007 6:57 PM Nighttrain has replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2544 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 62 of 66 (387660)
03-01-2007 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Nighttrain
03-01-2007 6:42 PM


Re: Concrete?
the pyramids are built with limestone, right? Limestone's fairly soft. Mohs scale of 3.
copper is at 3.5
bronze: variable, but harder than copper.
sure, they'll wear out after use, but hey, we're in the bronze age with the pyramids. something tells me reworking bronze ain't exactly that difficult for them.

"Have the Courage to Know!" --Immanuel Kant
" One useless man is a disgrace. Two are called a law firm. Three or more are called a congress" --paraphrased, John Adams
Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Nighttrain, posted 03-01-2007 6:42 PM Nighttrain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Nighttrain, posted 03-01-2007 7:02 PM kuresu has not replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 4024 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 63 of 66 (387661)
03-01-2007 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by kuresu
03-01-2007 6:57 PM


Re: Concrete?
Hi, K, limestone varies in hardness, even on the Giza plateau where clay inclusions create softer varieties. But when you start talking about granite, quartzite, diorite as worked in the same period, you can leave your bronzies at home.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by kuresu, posted 03-01-2007 6:57 PM kuresu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-02-2007 12:22 AM Nighttrain has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 64 of 66 (387692)
03-02-2007 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Nighttrain
03-01-2007 7:02 PM


Re: Concrete?
Hi, K, limestone varies in hardness, even on the Giza plateau where clay inclusions create softer varieties. But when you start talking about granite, quartzite, diorite as worked in the same period, you can leave your bronzies at home.
And yet, as you point out, they were working granite in the Bronze Age. A fortiori, they had means to work limestone.
---
According to the "concrete" hypothesis, surely they must have had means to crush limestone? (Without crushing the fossils in it, it would seem.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Nighttrain, posted 03-01-2007 7:02 PM Nighttrain has not replied

  
AnswersInGenitals
Member (Idle past 182 days)
Posts: 673
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 65 of 66 (389107)
03-10-2007 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Nighttrain
02-28-2007 9:38 PM


Re: Concrete?
For a structure as important and expensive as the GP, the Egyptians would only use material technologies in which the had an extremely high level of confidence, confidence in both the materials mechanical performance and in their ability to organize and execute such a massive project using that material. Concrete would only be used if it had a long history of success in previous large construction projects. Thus, if the GP blocks were really concrete, then concrete should be found in many and varied structures, including earlier and later pyramids, temples, mestabas, and engineering works such as canals, cisterns, etc. Since the GP was obviously successful structurally, one would expect its various technologies to continue to be used in many structures built after the GP. So, the issue is not just whether concrete was used for the GP blocks, but whether concrete was extensively used as a general building material at that time (in which case there would be so many examples of ruins using the technique that there wouldn't be any controversy). I am not aware that this is the case, but my knowledge is very limited in this area.
One objection I see to the theory of concrete use is that it is not clear what would have been gained. Concrete, if properly and precisely constituted can be much stronger than many forms of limestone, but the limestone available to the Egyptians was quite adequate for the pyramid construction. If concrete is not properly proportioned, mixed, and cured it can become quite weak and subject to catastrophic failure. The Davidovits article (p.100) argues that the content of fossils in the blocks tapers off toward the top. If the blocks were concrete, this would indicate that the limestone cement had not been sufficiently ground and the concrete not properly mixed. If limestone is in short supply then concrete has the advantage that it only uses about 10% limestone, the rest being sand and gravel, so that you get ten tons of blocks for each one ton of limestone. However, limestone is not in short supply in Egypt or in areas close to Giza. And of course, it takes as much effort to haul 2.5 tons of concrete mix up a long ramp as it does a 2.5 tons limestone block. I don't see where there is any net energy saving in using cast concrete instead of cut limestone.
My biggest objection to this theory relates to the fact that concrete is made up of calcined limestone, sand gravel, and water, and that calcined limestone (or cement) is made by quarrying chunks of limestone, grinding the limestone to a fine powder, and 'calcining' it, i. e., baking it in ovens over a long period of time to dehydrate it - drive off the water that is chemically combined with the calcium carbonate. If this were common practice at that time, remains of the thousands of calcining ovens should be found. But my real objection is the huge quantities of wood that would have been required. Wood was a precious commodity in Egypt and usually had to be imported. This is what led the Egyptians to develop their awesome stone technologies for their edifices. Davidovits argues that the Egyptians use of mortar and plaster indicates that they would have been familiar with concrete. Avoid getting too close to any concrete structures that this guy designed. Mortar and plaster are fine for facings but are nothing like concrete and would totally fail structurally under stresses even a fraction of those felt by the GP's blocks. In fact, mortar and plaster technologies are really more akin to slapping some mud on the side of a building for environmental protection, a practice used since primitive times.
One thing I don't understand is that if you google on 'concrete pyramid blocks, you learn about all kinds of scientific tests using every scientific instrument ever devised to test this theory. From my understanding, all you have to do is wash the sample in some muriatic acid (weak hydrochloric acid - the stuff you use in swimming pools to balance Ph) which dissolves away some of the limestone, and then examine the etched sample under a low power microscope to see the various constituents of the material. I understand that well trained people can tell from this how the concrete was made or where the limestone originated. I would also think that if concrete casting was used that it would not have been in the form of all these blocks, but would have been in much larger contiguous sections cast in place. Since concrete contracts very slightly when it hardens, there would be a limit to the maximum size section that could be cast at one time, but it certainly would be much larger than the size of the pyramid blocks. If the sections are too large, there is a risk of cracks forming, but even this is not a problem since the whole structure is in compression and the cracks just relieve the stresses.
Finally, I think the Egyptian people and government would be tickled pink if it were proved that their ancestors had been clever enough to have developed such advanced concrete manufacturing, casting, and construction technology, and that that proof would greatly enhance the pyramids value as a tourist attraction. They would gladly fund and support any efforts to provide such proof and I'm sure would make sample chips available to qualified researchers.
I am not suggesting that anything I have brought up refutes the cast concrete contention. I'm really just one of those guys you all complain about who tries to appear like an expert on a topic after googling it for five minutes. I am just stating that there are sufficient reasonable arguments against the contention to make the cast concrete pyramid block theory an extraordinary claim that therefore requires extraordinary proof (and for us know-nothings, a good level of consensus amongst the experts).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Nighttrain, posted 02-28-2007 9:38 PM Nighttrain has not replied

  
AnswersInGenitals
Member (Idle past 182 days)
Posts: 673
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 66 of 66 (389127)
03-10-2007 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
10-27-2004 9:41 PM


The pyramid 'factory'.
when I left college, I went to work for the satellite division of a major aerospace company as a physicist and engineer. I had better offers, but I was intrigued with the idea of learning how you can build something as sophisticated and delicate as a satellite, spend several minutes in shaking the heck out of it and shoving it around at several g's of force, subject it to the hostile environment of space and have it still work perfectly for several years, so I figured I'd work for this satellite company for a couple of years and then move on to a better job. I wound up spending my whole thirty year career there and loved (almost) every minute of it. One of the first things I learned is that when you want to build something, be it a satellite,or a car, or a cake, or a pyramid, or whatever, you have to build two things. You have to build the thing of interest, of course, but first you have to build the factory to build that thing. Factory, here, does not just refer to a building with some machines, but includes the designing, engineering, testing, and associated functions, and, very importantly, to the whole management hierarchy that hopefully will move the effort to the desired result. Factory here means the whole shebang, everything needed to get you from a rocky cliff face to a shine new pyramid.
I, too, have always been fascinated and intrigued by the question of how the pyramids were built, but particularly by the question of how the pyramid 'factory' was organized and managed. What kind of drawings and specifications were used? Did they make scale models as part of the design process? How did they communicate all the specifications for all the parts to the workers? How did they keep track of what went where and when? How much was planned in detail and how much was 'seat-of-the-pants'? What were the various labor level's work week like? How were skills acquired, trained, retained? I know previous posts have pointed out the work of Egyptologist Zahi Hawass in finding the city that housed the workers, but I suspect that we'll never learn the answers to most of these questions since most of the organizational material was probably recorded on perishable stock. I am also quite interested in answering these questions for medieval cathedrals, where there might be good historical records. I have never seen any of this discussed anywhere. Anyone have any information or any thoughts on the 'factory' that built the pyramids?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 10-27-2004 9:41 PM jar has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024