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Author Topic:   Wyatt's Museum and the shape of Noah's Ark
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 241 of 303 (105179)
05-04-2004 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by johnfolton
05-04-2004 9:29 AM


Don't get bent, its just an absolutely silly fantasy ... cue the hippo in the tutu
wrong
again.
what did the sailors of old use in storm conditions? consider this a homework assignment before coming back with more silliness.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by johnfolton, posted 05-04-2004 9:29 AM johnfolton has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by johnfolton, posted 05-04-2004 5:10 PM RAZD has replied

johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5675 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 242 of 303 (105291)
05-04-2004 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by RAZD
05-04-2004 10:05 AM


Raz, Just to think about how sailors of old would of been tossed by the wind, sounds more like it would have been more liken to an awesome roller coaster ride, the ark however, wasn't built for speed, (like you said a wave doesn't move), no reason for the ark to be put through roller coaster stresses on its wooden hull, if its the wind that moves a boat, a low rider wouldn't be driven by the wind across the surface, not designed like those ancient sailboats of old, with their need for a sea anchor off their tail in wind storms, to slow the speed their boats were driven by the winds.
The ark would of been a (low rider (water ballast), hull(moon)pool(forced air ventilation) & act as a (waste disposal hull pool), sea anchors (to act as the rudder)& (act as a sea brake), a natual water delivery system (RAM Pumps), and wastewater removal system a part of the design (bilge waste flowing to the lowered moonpool), ballast (simple water filled compartments that could be filled by wave powered RAM pumps, and be drained to the moon pool to be able to adjust ride), etc...
P.S. I think you hit the nail on the head, that the waves don't move, its the wind that moves the boats over the wave surfaces, the purpose of the sea anchor to act as a sea brake the boat by your immovable wave, and I like how with anchors off the bow, the ark would of cut through the waves, instead of bobbing up and down (as with anchors off the tail), no reason there were large waves, in that your tusami, would of already dispersed its energies far before the fresh waters started rising upwards up above the continental land masses, etc...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by RAZD, posted 05-04-2004 10:05 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Bonobojones, posted 05-04-2004 6:32 PM johnfolton has not replied
 Message 246 by JonF, posted 05-04-2004 7:10 PM johnfolton has replied
 Message 254 by RAZD, posted 05-04-2004 10:03 PM johnfolton has replied

Bonobojones
Inactive Member


Message 243 of 303 (105324)
05-04-2004 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by johnfolton
05-04-2004 5:10 PM


Great Caesar's Ghost!! It's like trying to reason with my three year old!
And the winner of this year's Cliff Claven award is.....

Reunite Gondwana!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by johnfolton, posted 05-04-2004 5:10 PM johnfolton has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by SRO2, posted 05-04-2004 6:46 PM Bonobojones has not replied
 Message 245 by jar, posted 05-04-2004 7:08 PM Bonobojones has replied

SRO2 
Inactive Member


Message 244 of 303 (105331)
05-04-2004 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Bonobojones
05-04-2004 6:32 PM


It's the 2 ton square wheel syndrome
It'll work! It's gotta' work! A 4,000lb. square wheel WILL roll if you find a steep enough grade and get a block and tackle, some pry bars, a chainfall, a few dozen strong men, two logs and three come-alongs...A 2 TON SQUARE WHEEL WILL ROLL BY-GOD!!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Bonobojones, posted 05-04-2004 6:32 PM Bonobojones has not replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34058
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 245 of 303 (105335)
05-04-2004 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Bonobojones
05-04-2004 6:32 PM


Wrong. Three year olds keep asking why but they actually take something in. You owe your three year old an apology.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Bonobojones, posted 05-04-2004 6:32 PM Bonobojones has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Bonobojones, posted 05-04-2004 9:32 PM jar has not replied

JonF
Member (Idle past 251 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 246 of 303 (105337)
05-04-2004 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by johnfolton
05-04-2004 5:10 PM


(like you said a wave doesn't move),
He said no such thing. Waves move, the water doesn't (much).
no reason for the ark to be put through roller coaster stresses on its wooden hull,
Indavertantly you're right; since there was no ark and there was no flood, there is no reason for a nonexistant boat to be put through roller coaster stresses in a nonexistant flood. However, if there had been an ark and flood, the ark wou;d have been put through much worse than roller coaster stresses ... especially if someone were lunatic enough to tie big rocks to it and punch a big hole in the bottom.
not designed like those ancient sailboats of old, with their need for a sea anchor off their tail in wind storms, to slow the speed their boats were driven by the winds
You have no idea what a sea anchor is for. Hint: its purpose is not to slow a boat down. Its purpose is to keep a boat pointing into the seas, preventing capsizing. Another of the many reasons the Ark would have sunk.
The ark would of been a (low rider (water ballast), hull(moon)pool(forced air ventilation) & act as a (waste disposal hull pool), sea anchors (to act as the rudder)& (act as a sea brake), a natual water delivery system (RAM Pumps), and wastewater removal system a part of the design (bilge waste flowing to the lowered moonpool), ballast (simple water filled compartments that could be filled by wave powered RAM pumps, and be drained to the moon pool to be able to adjust ride),
And would have been on the bottom, in pieces, in a day or less.
and I like how with anchors off the bow, the ark would of cut through the waves,
Also known as "broaching" ... pretty close to the worst thing that can happen to a boat. A sure recipe for immediate sinking.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by johnfolton, posted 05-04-2004 5:10 PM johnfolton has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by johnfolton, posted 05-04-2004 8:35 PM JonF has replied

johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5675 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 247 of 303 (105366)
05-04-2004 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by JonF
05-04-2004 7:10 PM


Jon, He said no such thing. Waves move, the water doesn't (much).
Whatever, Meaning the same thing?
Jon, Its purpose is to keep a boat pointing into the seas
Whatever, If they put the anchor off the tail, how does it keep the boat pointing into the current?
Jon, Also known as "broaching" ... pretty close to the worst thing that can happen to a boat.
Whatever, If the ark had a big hull hole in the bottom like the japanese buoy's have built into their design, that also had a big hole in the bottom which interestingly don't fill with water and sink(in fact they are making electricity off this principle of forced air compressions), why would you feel the ark would sink if it too had a roof, and a vent system similar to the japanese electric generating buoy's, etc... Maybe broaching is a good thing if you have a roof venting system that's designed to not allow water in, so not to overpower the hull pool, as its diving the pressure could be designed to be closing intake air vents, the air pressure blowing out the blow hole vents preventing water from coming into the ark, and when the ark's coming out of the water its drawing in air (a simple wave based ventilation system), not that the ark was ever broaching cause it had a roof, and even if it was a low rider, it was actually quite tall, so it wouldn't need to be a broacher to maintain its position in the waves, if 45 feet were below the water line, and 10 feet above the water line, it would still qualify as a low rider, with the anchor stones keeping its bow into the current, and normal rolling waves, broaching was not a problem, the anchor stones was not heavy enough to qualify as ballast to make the ark broach into the waves, its primary purpose was to be the rudder, and to act as a sea brake, etc...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by JonF, posted 05-04-2004 7:10 PM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by JonF, posted 05-04-2004 9:57 PM johnfolton has not replied

Bonobojones
Inactive Member


Message 248 of 303 (105380)
05-04-2004 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by jar
05-04-2004 7:08 PM


jar, yer right. My boy does seem to have the ability to learn.

Reunite Gondwana!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by jar, posted 05-04-2004 7:08 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by NosyNed, posted 05-04-2004 9:34 PM Bonobojones has replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9006
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 249 of 303 (105382)
05-04-2004 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by Bonobojones
05-04-2004 9:32 PM


and you go on?
Isn't it time to give up on this nonsense??
(but if you're having fun, it is just painful to watch and I can't help but peek)
This guy is as ignorant as any we've had come through here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Bonobojones, posted 05-04-2004 9:32 PM Bonobojones has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Bonobojones, posted 05-04-2004 9:39 PM NosyNed has replied
 Message 255 by JonF, posted 05-04-2004 10:07 PM NosyNed has not replied

Bonobojones
Inactive Member


Message 250 of 303 (105385)
05-04-2004 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by NosyNed
05-04-2004 9:34 PM


Re: and you go on?
Ned. It's kinda like picking a scab. It does ya no good, but ya can't stop.

Reunite Gondwana!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by NosyNed, posted 05-04-2004 9:34 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by NosyNed, posted 05-04-2004 9:51 PM Bonobojones has not replied
 Message 257 by johnfolton, posted 05-04-2004 10:35 PM Bonobojones has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9006
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 251 of 303 (105388)
05-04-2004 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Bonobojones
05-04-2004 9:39 PM


Re: and you go on?
I know how you feel. That's why I can't stop reading the nonsense he posts. It is scary that someone with so little comprehension is let out on his own.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Bonobojones, posted 05-04-2004 9:39 PM Bonobojones has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by jar, posted 05-04-2004 9:51 PM NosyNed has not replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34058
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 252 of 303 (105389)
05-04-2004 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by NosyNed
05-04-2004 9:51 PM


Re: and you go on?
But he is persistent.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by NosyNed, posted 05-04-2004 9:51 PM NosyNed has not replied

JonF
Member (Idle past 251 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 253 of 303 (105391)
05-04-2004 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by johnfolton
05-04-2004 8:35 PM


Waves move, the water doesn't (much).
Whatever, Meaning the same thing?
No. Waves and water are not the same thing. Water transmits waves.
Its purpose is to keep a boat pointing into the seas
Whatever, If they put the anchor off the tail, how does it keep the boat pointing into the current?
By causing drag very near the surface, in the same currents and waves that the hull experiences, which pulls the stern away from the seas. The thing with the most drag, the sea anchor, winds up down-current. Note that a sea anchor is not a big chunk of something heavy hanging off the boat, like a rock; a sea anchor is something totally different. Hanging big chunks of heavy stuff off of an unpowered boat causes the boat to sink in heavy seas, by broaching or capsizing.
Maybe broaching is a good thing
Broaching is a bad thing in any vessel, be it completely open or hermetically sealed or anything else. When vessels broach at sea they almost always sink; the water on top of the vessel pushes it down.
if you have a roof venting system that's designed to not allow water in, so not to overpower the hull pool, as its diving the pressure could be designed to be closing intake air vents, the air pressure blowing out the blow hole vents preventing water from coming into the ark, and when the ark's coming out of the water its drawing in air (a simple wave based ventilation system),
As has been pointed out before, in your ventilation idea some vent (either intake or exhaust) is always open, letting water in and sinking the ark. Air pressure is not enough to hold back water pressure unless you build up several atmospheres of pressure inside the ark; water is much heavier than air. To build up that kind of pressure you need hermetic sealing, big blowers, and serious power plants to run them.
10 feet above the water line, it would still qualify as a low rider
Yeah ... "low" as in "at the bottom of the sea". 10 feet above the waterline is nothing.
with the anchor stones keeping its bow into the current,
Through what effect? Magic? Stones hanging off the bow, or stern, would not have that effect. Big rocks aren't sea anchors.
and normal rolling waves, broaching was not a problem
I love it how the Flood is stiller than the quietest millpond when the stability of the Ark is concerened yet wilder than the worst storm when YECs want to explain the observed erosion.
Nonetheless, any boat with 10 feet showing above the waterline and big rocks hanging off the bow would broach and sink even in mild seas.
the anchor stones was not heavy enough to qualify as ballast to make the ark broach into the waves, its primary purpose was to be the rudder, and to act as a sea brake, etc...
Since they wouldn't act as a rudder or a "sea brake", all they would do would help the ark sink faster.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by johnfolton, posted 05-04-2004 8:35 PM johnfolton has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 254 of 303 (105393)
05-04-2004 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by johnfolton
05-04-2004 5:10 PM


The dent in the wall is optional
I told you to do some homework, and sadly you haven't. Ignorance is not cured by navel gazing but by learning. You have no idea what and how the sailors of old worked in storms to minimize damage do you? You have no idea how waves behave do you? Finally you have no idea about the stresses of boats in waves do you? Go to:
Error
On this site you will see various wave motions. Look at two things (you will need to have animations on to see these, and I hope they show okay here):
(1) the first animation from the site: sound waves in the tube and the particles bouncing back and forth -- this is what the surface of the water movement will be like - particularly notice the compression and decompression aspects. Water being incompressible means the waves push up and down with these parts of the wave, so you add up and down to back and forth. Slow motion at the peaks fast motion at the troughs -- different parts of the boat will be experiencing different parts of the wave at the same time. Do you think sea-sickness is caused by looking? Now, try not to think of an elephant with the hurls ... (thas ugly).
Now look at:
(2) the third animation from the site: water waves and follow the blue dots -- the lower one is where your anchor stones are. As I said the ark would come down the wave and shoot ahead of the stones the hit the next wave and turn sideways and roll with minimal resistance from the stones. Notice that a parachute just under the surface with the line set to match the parachute and boat to the wavelength (proper usage) and the boat is held bow forward no matter which part of the wave it is on.
Because of the motion of the waves under the boat a heavliy laden boat is under more stress, look at that blue dot again and think of a boat that is first lifted by the middle on a wave peak then lifted by the ends in a wave trough, now take a coathanger in your hands and bend it back and forth ... try to match the wave motion ...
And most definitely there is no way there were not big waves, because you are asking for both a way bigger storm AND way more geological movement than has ever been recorded on this earth. Those pictures of the fountains from the mid ocean ridges (ROFLOL btw -- those are from magma) would turn the basins in between into washing machines. AND the plate movements don't stop with the rain because you have to raise up all those mountains that were just leveled ...
And one last point ... you don't ever have just one set of waves -- there are always cross-waves that cause additional peaks and such (the effects add up from all the different sources).
Try your model in a washing machine, and enjoy the ride.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by johnfolton, posted 05-04-2004 5:10 PM johnfolton has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by jar, posted 05-04-2004 10:31 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 260 by johnfolton, posted 05-04-2004 10:54 PM RAZD has not replied

JonF
Member (Idle past 251 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 255 of 303 (105394)
05-04-2004 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by NosyNed
05-04-2004 9:34 PM


Re: and you go on?
This guy is as ignorant as any we've had come through here
Yup. Worst case of Morton's Demon that I've ever seen.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by NosyNed, posted 05-04-2004 9:34 PM NosyNed has not replied

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