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Author Topic:   Kingdom on Earth (Re: Barack Obama comments)
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 271 of 308 (441224)
12-16-2007 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by Buzsaw
12-16-2007 7:05 PM


Mor Buz misrepresentation?
Buz says "OBAMA ON ISRAEL:" and then posts the following:
Given the anti-Semitism that is sadly so often associated with other leaders and groups that have emphasized black separatism and empowerment (think Louis Farrakhan, Jesse Jackson, and Al Sharpton) perhaps some qualms might be warranted, particularly given some of the actions and statements of the Church's minister.
Reverend Jeremiah Wright, Jr. is the long-time Pastor of Obama's church, and Obama has credited him as being an inspiration and guiding light for him. He is a spiritual mentor to Obama and coined the term the "audacity of hope" that Obama has essentially made a theme of his campaign as well as the title of a book. He also has, in the words of the Chicago Tribune, a militant past.
Moreover, Pastor Wright has beliefs that might disturb some of Obama's supporters. He is a believer in "liberation theology," which makes the liberation of the oppressed a paramount virtue. The language of liberation all too often veers off into anti-Jewish rants. For example, one of the founders of the movement, Gustavo Gutierrez, has stated that the infidelities of the Jewish people made the Old Covenant [between the Jews and God] invalid." Pastor Wright is also a supporter of Louis Farrakhan, and in 1984 traveled with him to visit Col. Muammar al-Gadaffi, an archenemy of Israel's and America and a firm supporter of terror groups.
Wright has also been a severe critic of Israel. In his own words,
The Israelis have illegally occupied Palestinian territories for almost 40 years now. It took a divestment campaign to wake the business community up concerning the South Africa issue. Divestment has now hit the table again as a strategy to wake the business community up and to wake Americans up concerning the injustice and the racism under which the Palestinians have lived because of Zionism.
Buz, where in that smear piece is there a quote from Obama?
3. Protestant via the Reformation and the Constitution prevented forced religion and persecution in North America.
Ah, bullshit Buz. Tell that to the Native Americans whose religions were persecuted, who were forced into Christianity and who were killed by Christian Genocide.
CONCERN 2: A MUSLIM PRESIDENT MIGHT BE INCLINED TO UNDERMINE THE US SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL.
Why should we support Israel?
PLEASE NOTE: MY CONCERN IS NOT THAT A MUSLIM PRESIDENT WOULD IMMEDIATELY WORK TO FORCE ISLAM UPON AMERICA. MY CONCERN IS THAT ONE MIGHT BE INCLINED TO UNDERMINE THE WAR ON TERRORISM. OBAMA DECLARES HE WOULD BRING GROOPS HOME BY SPRING, 08.
What the hell does the War in Iraq have to do with the War on Terror? Even the Bush Administration gave up beating that dead horse.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Buzsaw, posted 12-16-2007 7:05 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by Buzsaw, posted 12-16-2007 9:11 PM jar has replied

DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 272 of 308 (441228)
12-16-2007 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by Buzsaw
12-16-2007 7:05 PM


Re: The Good Ones
CONCERN 2: A MUSLIM PRESIDENT MIGHT BE INCLINED TO UNDERMINE THE US SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL.
So might a christian president who wants to bring about the second coming. As someone else pointed out here, christians (and yeah I'm generalizing but so are you against Muslims) don't want Israel to exist because they love the Jewish people but because it has to exist and be attacked before jesus returns.
And really, why does Israel need US support? Surely god can look after his chosen people, or is there still a chance that he'll nod off and allow another Holocaust?
Edited by DrJones*, : No reason given.

Live every week like it's Shark Week!
Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Buzsaw, posted 12-16-2007 7:05 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Chiroptera, posted 12-16-2007 8:55 PM DrJones* has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 273 of 308 (441230)
12-16-2007 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by Buzsaw
12-16-2007 7:05 PM


These are Muslim concerns?
The further removed from the reformation, the less concern about Catholicism's history.
Huh. I'm not sure what you mean here, Buz. The point is, you made some remarks about how one should, as a general principle, be averse to a Catholic President because of the behavior of some Catholics during a certain time and a certain place; it turns out that a Catholic was elected despite his being a Catholic because people actually looked at his record and at what he stood for; they didn't let worries about some secret Catholic agenda stand in his way. And, sure enough, none of the fears of the paranoid anti-Catholics were instantiated.
In the same way, even if Obama were a Muslim, his suitability for office should be judged solely on the actual record that he built up and the campaign statements that he makes consistent with this record; fears of some secret Muslim agenda are just paranoia.
-
The reason Catholicsm was brutal in South America is because it was allowed to be being the majority ideology of the conquerors.
Exactly right. The brutality and/or benevolence of any religion is going to be based on societal norms. Christian Catholics in 18th century South America were brutal; Christian Quakers in 19th century North America were instrumental in the Abolitionist movement. Muslims in Afghanistan want to impose Sharia law; Muslims in Turkey are committed to secularism.
-
Protestant via the Reformation and the Constitution prevented forced religion and persecution in North America.
Funny how they weren't so successful at preventing African slavery or Native American ethnic cleansing.
-
MY CONCERN IS THAT ONE MIGHT BE INCLINED TO UNDERMINE THE WAR ON TERRORISM.
Heck, you don't have to be a Muslim for that. Most of us against the so-called "war on terrorism" are not Muslim.
-
A MUSLIM PRESIDENT MIGHT BE INCLINED TO UNDERMINE THE US SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL.
Heck, you don't have to be a Muslim for that, if by "US support for Israel" you mean unconditional support for Israel's colonialism. Most of us who are against Israel's brutalization of the Palestinians are not Muslim.
-
By the way, this isn't meant to derail the thread onto an off-topic discussion on the "War of Terrorism" or support for Israel's apartheid regime. Just pointing out that opposition to these things are not Muslim/non-Muslim issues. I would support a candidate who would oppose these things whether or not he was a Muslim.

It has become fashionable on the left and in Western Europe to compare the Bush administration to the Nazis. The comparison is not without some superficial merit. In both cases the government is run by a small gang of snickering, stupid thugs whose vision of paradise is full of explosions and beautifully designed prisons. -- Matt Taibbi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Buzsaw, posted 12-16-2007 7:05 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by molbiogirl, posted 12-16-2007 8:30 PM Chiroptera has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 274 of 308 (441234)
12-16-2007 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by Chiroptera
12-16-2007 8:13 PM


Re: These are Muslim concerns?
Exactly right. The brutality and/or benevolence of any religion is going to be based on societal norms. Christian Catholics in 18th century South America were brutal; Christian Quakers in 19th century North America were instrumental in the Abolitionist movement. Muslims in Afghanistan want to impose Sharia law; Muslims in Turkey are committed to secularism.
OMG, Chi.
Touché.
What a brilliant analogy.
My respect for you grows day by day.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Chiroptera, posted 12-16-2007 8:13 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by Chiroptera, posted 12-16-2007 8:54 PM molbiogirl has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 275 of 308 (441237)
12-16-2007 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by molbiogirl
12-16-2007 8:30 PM


Re: These are Muslim concerns?
Aw, shucks! And I wasn't even trying all that hard, neither.

It has become fashionable on the left and in Western Europe to compare the Bush administration to the Nazis. The comparison is not without some superficial merit. In both cases the government is run by a small gang of snickering, stupid thugs whose vision of paradise is full of explosions and beautifully designed prisons. -- Matt Taibbi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by molbiogirl, posted 12-16-2007 8:30 PM molbiogirl has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 276 of 308 (441238)
12-16-2007 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by DrJones*
12-16-2007 8:00 PM


Re: The Good Ones
And really, why does Israel need US support?
Funny. I would think that withdrawal of US support would usher in the Second Coming that much more quickly.

It has become fashionable on the left and in Western Europe to compare the Bush administration to the Nazis. The comparison is not without some superficial merit. In both cases the government is run by a small gang of snickering, stupid thugs whose vision of paradise is full of explosions and beautifully designed prisons. -- Matt Taibbi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by DrJones*, posted 12-16-2007 8:00 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by Buzsaw, posted 12-16-2007 9:24 PM Chiroptera has not replied
 Message 279 by DrJones*, posted 12-16-2007 9:26 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 277 of 308 (441240)
12-16-2007 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by jar
12-16-2007 7:20 PM


Re: Mor Buz misrepresentation?
Jar writes:
Buz, where in that smear piece is there a quote from Obama?
There needn't be a direct quote to make my point. Note the embolding (which is mine)
Reverend Jeremiah Wright, Jr. is the long-time Pastor of Obama's church, and Obama has credited him as being an inspiration and guiding light for him. He is a spiritual mentor to Obama and coined the term the "audacity of hope" that Obama has essentially made a theme of his campaign as well as the title of a book. He also has, in the words of the Chicago Tribune, a militant past.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by jar, posted 12-16-2007 7:20 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by jar, posted 12-16-2007 9:38 PM Buzsaw has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 278 of 308 (441244)
12-16-2007 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by Chiroptera
12-16-2007 8:55 PM


Re: The Good Ones
Chiroptera writes:
Funny. I would think that withdrawal of US support would usher in the Second Coming that much more quickly.
It's nothing but a dumb far fetched notion which has no substance (ABE: that a Christian president would resort to this.) I'm surprised that you intelligent folks condescend to such nonsense and laud it among yourselves as profound debate material.
There's so much of this sort of thing here for me to deal with that it's hard to assertain which is tongue-in-cheek and which is meant to be serious.
Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Chiroptera, posted 12-16-2007 8:55 PM Chiroptera has not replied

DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 279 of 308 (441245)
12-16-2007 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by Chiroptera
12-16-2007 8:55 PM


Re: The Good Ones
Funny. I would think that withdrawal of US support would usher in the Second Coming that much more quickly
True, which makes me wonder about Buz's support of Israel. Perhaps he is a not a christian but is a closet athiest and his suport of Israel is his attempt to oppose jesus' return.
Smearing people is fun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Chiroptera, posted 12-16-2007 8:55 PM Chiroptera has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 280 of 308 (441248)
12-16-2007 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by Buzsaw
12-16-2007 9:11 PM


Buz continues to misrepresent the truth.
There needn't be a direct quote to make my point. Note the embolding (which is mine)
So you see absolutely nothing wrong with making stuff up and then attributing to someone and even claiming that they said it?
Once again Buz, where in that smear post is there anything from "OBAMA ON ISRAEL:"?
For those who missed the quote in Message 268, here it is yet again:
Given the anti-Semitism that is sadly so often associated with other leaders and groups that have emphasized black separatism and empowerment (think Louis Farrakhan, Jesse Jackson, and Al Sharpton) perhaps some qualms might be warranted, particularly given some of the actions and statements of the Church's minister.
Reverend Jeremiah Wright, Jr. is the long-time Pastor of Obama's church, and Obama has credited him as being an inspiration and guiding light for him. He is a spiritual mentor to Obama and coined the term the "audacity of hope" that Obama has essentially made a theme of his campaign as well as the title of a book. He also has, in the words of the Chicago Tribune, a militant past.
Moreover, Pastor Wright has beliefs that might disturb some of Obama's supporters. He is a believer in "liberation theology," which makes the liberation of the oppressed a paramount virtue. The language of liberation all too often veers off into anti-Jewish rants. For example, one of the founders of the movement, Gustavo Gutierrez, has stated that the infidelities of the Jewish people made the Old Covenant [between the Jews and God] invalid." Pastor Wright is also a supporter of Louis Farrakhan, and in 1984 traveled with him to visit Col. Muammar al-Gadaffi, an archenemy of Israel's and America and a firm supporter of terror groups.
Wright has also been a severe critic of Israel. In his own words,
The Israelis have illegally occupied Palestinian territories for almost 40 years now. It took a divestment campaign to wake the business community up concerning the South Africa issue. Divestment has now hit the table again as a strategy to wake the business community up and to wake Americans up concerning the injustice and the racism under which the Palestinians have lived because of Zionism.
Where is the quote that shows "OBAMA ON ISRAEL:" or is this just another example of you simply making stuff up and your smear tactics?
Did you also note that the part you highlighted is not even related to a Muslim but to Reverend Jeremiah Wright, Jr. who happens to be a Christian Pastor of Trinity United Church of Christ that has as its motto, "Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian"?
Can you explain how smear quotes of a Christian Pastor can be related to "CONCERN 2: A MUSLIM PRESIDENT MIGHT BE INCLINED TO UNDERMINE THE US SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL."?

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Buzsaw, posted 12-16-2007 9:11 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by Buzsaw, posted 12-16-2007 9:51 PM jar has replied
 Message 292 by Buzsaw, posted 12-17-2007 7:57 PM jar has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 281 of 308 (441249)
12-16-2007 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by Silent H
12-16-2007 7:16 PM


Re: The Good Ones
There is and never was anything illegal about the Israeli occupation of Israel. It was set up by the world body and most of the acquired land was purchased from those willing to sell. Furthermore many of the occupants when it was set up were transient nomadic herdsmen who had no certain dwelling.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Silent H, posted 12-16-2007 7:16 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by molbiogirl, posted 12-16-2007 10:11 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 287 by Silent H, posted 12-16-2007 11:36 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 282 of 308 (441252)
12-16-2007 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by jar
12-16-2007 9:38 PM


Re: Buz continues to misrepresent the truth.
Jar writes:
Did you also note that the part you highlighted is not even related to a Muslim but to Reverend Jeremiah Wright, Jr. who happens to be a Christian Pastor of Trinity United Church of Christ that has as its motto, "Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian"?
This is a strawman. My point by the quote was the anti-Semitism and militant radicalism of Obama's key mentor and the false notion of his mentor that Israel should receive no support. Would we really want a president who's lauded mentor espouses Louis Farrakan's anti-Semitic hatred of Israel to the extent which the pastor's quote depicts?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by jar, posted 12-16-2007 9:38 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by jar, posted 12-16-2007 10:02 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 285 by molbiogirl, posted 12-16-2007 10:31 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 286 by nator, posted 12-16-2007 10:41 PM Buzsaw has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 283 of 308 (441255)
12-16-2007 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by Buzsaw
12-16-2007 9:51 PM


Re: Buz continues to misrepresent the truth.
This is a strawman. My point by the quote was the anti-Semitism and militant radicalism of Obama's key mentor and the false notion of his mentor that Israel should receive no support. Would we really want a president who's lauded mentor espouses Louis Farrakan's anti-Semitic hatred of Israel to the extent which the pastor's quote depicts?
No Buz it is not a strawman as anyone who reads your Message 268 can see.
In addition there is nothing in the quote that shows any anti-semitic hatred of Israel.
Note to all:
you never have answered the questions:
Why should we fear a Muslim President?
or
Why should we support Israel?
Finally, there is nothing in the quote you supplied that says Reverend Jeremiah Wright, Jr. "espouses Louis Farrakan's anti-Semitic hatred of Israel ".
Why do you keep making shit up?
The closest you can even come to such a position is that the unknown author of the smear stuff claims "Pastor Wright is also a supporter of Louis Farrakhan, and in 1984 traveled with him to visit Col. Muammar al-Gadaffi, an archenemy of Israel's and America and a firm supporter of terror groups." even though Muammar al-Gadaffi has repeatedly forsworn violence and terrorism.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Buzsaw, posted 12-16-2007 9:51 PM Buzsaw has not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 284 of 308 (441257)
12-16-2007 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by Buzsaw
12-16-2007 9:41 PM


Re: The Good Ones
Furthermore many of the occupants when it was set up were transient nomadic herdsmen who had no certain dwelling.
OMFNG!
Best! Creo! Post! Evar!
Yeah.
Those pesky transient nomadic tribesmen who have no certain dwelling.
You know, Buzter, you would have done very, very well in 15th century North America (on the side of your xian brethren I mean).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Buzsaw, posted 12-16-2007 9:41 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by Chiroptera, posted 12-17-2007 8:16 PM molbiogirl has not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 285 of 308 (441266)
12-16-2007 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by Buzsaw
12-16-2007 9:51 PM


Re: Buz continues to misrepresent the truth.
My point by the quote was the anti-Semitism and militant radicalism of Obama's key mentor and the false notion of his mentor that Israel should receive no support.
You know, Buzkins, Senator Obama's mentor in the Senate is Senator Lieberman.
Here's a summary of Senator Lieberman's position on Israel:
"It is a tribute to a senator who seems to be choosing to use his unique position as America’s most prominent Jew to send a message that being pro-Israel does not require being anti-Palestinian."
"What Lieberman did, which was heartening, was address issues related to Israelis and Palestinians in a manner we have not come to expect from politicians. He told Israelis that there was no alternative to getting back to negotiations. He went to Ramallah to say that he favors “a free and secure Palestine” alongside a free and secure Israel. He said that within Congress there is “strong support for the aspirations of the Palestinian people for independent statehood . .” And he challenged the Palestinians to produce the “sufficient leadership” to get that state established “sooner rather than later.” Touring Ramallah with Palestinian officials, a clearly upset Lieberman said that there are “desperate humanitarian conditions here” which must be addressed, and he wants the Bush administration to start providing more humanitarian aid."
I tell you what.
Let's round up all of Senator Obama's mentors and count up those that you think are pro-Israel and those that you think are anti-Israel.
Then let's add up all the pro-Isrealites and all the anti-Israelites.
Then we'll know exactly what Senator Obama thinks!
--
Here is what Senator Obama had to say of his experiences at UCC:
"Kneeling beneath that cross on the South Side, I felt that I heard God's spirit beckoning me," Obama said last year, recalling the altar call at Wright's church. "I submitted myself to his will and dedicated myself to discovering his truth."
Yep. That there is a gotnam mooslem terrist iffn I ever did see one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Buzsaw, posted 12-16-2007 9:51 PM Buzsaw has not replied

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