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Member (Idle past 5819 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Can those outside of science credibly speak about science? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I understand that it must be so embarrasing and so painful to be countered so thoroughly that you must resort to defensive, anti-academic condescention.
quote: Yes, many can understand a fallacy when it is presented to them clearly. That has nothing to do with natural ability to do logic, which is what you claimed humas have. Good lord, have you ever read the letters to the editor section of any newspaper? That alone should be evidence enough that logic is not natural to humans, and that fallacious thinking abounds in the population.
quote: Why are you so afraid of learning about this? I imagine you would find it fascinating if you ever began to entertain the notion that your personal opinions do not constitute rigorous scientific evidence.
quote: The Wason card task studies very strikingly demonstrate one aspect of being human. We suck at formal logic. This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-05-2006 04:55 PM
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
it really is very simple if you think about it. That people are "tricked" indicates that their thinking is not logical. That's nonsense. I'm talking about real-world logic. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
Yes, many can understand a fallacy when it is presented to them clearly. That has nothing to do with natural ability to do logic, which is what you claimed humas have. Whether it is presented clearly has everything to do with it. Do you want to trick people--and then proclaim that they are not logical? That's what your little academic logical test does.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Applying logic, formally or informally is sufficient to solve the problem posed by the cards. So your "real-world logic" is not even the informal application of logical thinking. All the problem requires is the ability to consider the possible results of turning over each card and identifying whether one of them could contradict the proposition.
Indeed at this point I have to ask what possible result could falsify your position.h
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I'm talking about "real world" logic too, because there is no difference between it and formal logic. Logic is logic no matter where it occurs. That's the neat thing about it. That you don't understand this fact is yet another indication that you do not understand the issues in this thread. If you are trying to argue that when given carefully constructed logic problems in a research setting, people are bad at logic, but when thrown into the messy real world to deal with practical issues people are naturally very good at logic, boy are you wrong. The volume of research on how both patients and medical personnel make logical errors in interpreting diagnostic data is staggering (and scary).
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
YOu raise a good point. The basic concepts of logic are built into language - although they are usually not rigorously applied. (By the basic concepts I mean negation, conjunction and disjunction - as well as the concept of "truth").
On the other hand logic can be reagarded as a formalisation of these basic principles of language. IMHO the latter view is more accurate. The basic logical principles we find in language are there because they are useful - they give the language a good deal of power that it would not otherwise have. Logic, then, is derived from formalising and rigourously applying the principles adopted for more pragmatic reasons. e
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
That you don't understand this fact is yet another indication that you do not understand the issues in this thread. I think I understand the issues fairly well. And I can tell you that when presented with a fallacy, people recognize it. What happens is that people don't THINK in real world situations. Take my example of the "great artist": All great artists have a lot of women.I have a lot of women. Therefore, I am a great artist. If my friend had been able to realize that this was the idea he was living by, he would have recognized immediately the fallacy involved. In fact, he did recognize it eventually.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
Indeed at this point I have to ask what possible result could falsify your position If I had a class of students that couldn't recognize the fallacy of the undistributed middle term, that would falsify it. In 20 years, that has not happened. Therefore, I am right.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
YOu are still beign very vague. If you are claiming that most people can recognise obvious fallacies when presented with them in a classroom situation then your point seems very trivial. Especially as I do not believe you can rightly call the classroom a "real-world" situation while at the same time attacking a test on the grounds that it is abstracted rather than grounded in everyday activities.
On the other hand we see all sorts of fallacious logic being presented. Such as THisquote: Not only do we have a blatant appeal to popularity the author fails to notice that he is simultaneously attacking another best-seller.
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
If you are trying to argue that when given carefully constructed logic problems in a research setting, people are bad at logic, but when thrown into the messy real world to deal with practical issues people are naturally very good at logic, boy are you wrong. The volume of research on how both patients and medical personnel make logical errors in interpreting diagnostic data is staggering (and scary).
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1467 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
And I can tell you that when presented with a fallacy, people recognize it. Apparently not; you've consistently ignored your own fallacious thinking.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
If you are trying to argue that when given carefully constructed logic problems in a research setting, people are bad at logic, but when thrown into the messy real world to deal with practical issues people are naturally very good at logic, boy are you wrong. The volume of research on how both patients and medical personnel make logical errors in interpreting diagnostic data is staggering (and scary). I think you said this before. Why are you repeating yourself? Are you a broken record?
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1467 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
If I had a class of students that couldn't recognize the fallacy of the undistributed middle term, that would falsify it. In 20 years, that has not happened. So, you're rebutting a claim that people do not recognize logical fallacies unles educated about them with an observation of educated persons recognizing logical fallacies? Does that seem logical to you?
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1467 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
I think you said this before. Why are you repeating yourself? Probably because it doesn't seem to sink in with you?
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
Apparently not; you've consistently ignored your own fallacious thinking. Funny. Obviously, Crashfrog, my fallacy has not been presented clearly to me.
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