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Author Topic:   Can those outside of science credibly speak about science?
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 181 of 198 (292463)
03-05-2006 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by robinrohan
03-05-2006 4:32 PM


Re: OK, if you think logic is so natural
quote:
You amuse me no end, Schraf, with your little academic quizzes.
I understand that it must be so embarrasing and so painful to be countered so thoroughly that you must resort to defensive, anti-academic condescention.
quote:
I have 20 years' experience judging real people who have minimal academic training, and I can tell you they can recognize a fallacy if you present it to them clearly.
Yes, many can understand a fallacy when it is presented to them clearly.
That has nothing to do with natural ability to do logic, which is what you claimed humas have.
Good lord, have you ever read the letters to the editor section of any newspaper? That alone should be evidence enough that logic is not natural to humans, and that fallacious thinking abounds in the population.
quote:
But you don't care about that. Go ahead and live in your little academic dream world of logical puzzles, your psychological tests and the like.
Why are you so afraid of learning about this? I imagine you would find it fascinating if you ever began to entertain the notion that your personal opinions do not constitute rigorous scientific evidence.
quote:
As if those little quizzes could describe a human being.
The Wason card task studies very strikingly demonstrate one aspect of being human.
We suck at formal logic.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-05-2006 04:55 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by robinrohan, posted 03-05-2006 4:32 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by robinrohan, posted 03-05-2006 5:06 PM nator has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 182 of 198 (292464)
03-05-2006 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by PaulK
03-05-2006 4:41 PM


Re: Living fallaciously
it really is very simple if you think about it. That people are "tricked" indicates that their thinking is not logical.
That's nonsense. I'm talking about real-world logic.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by PaulK, posted 03-05-2006 4:41 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by PaulK, posted 03-05-2006 5:08 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 185 by nator, posted 03-05-2006 5:10 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 183 of 198 (292469)
03-05-2006 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by nator
03-05-2006 4:55 PM


Re: OK, if you think logic is so natural
Yes, many can understand a fallacy when it is presented to them clearly.
That has nothing to do with natural ability to do logic, which is what you claimed humas have.
Whether it is presented clearly has everything to do with it. Do you want to trick people--and then proclaim that they are not logical?
That's what your little academic logical test does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by nator, posted 03-05-2006 4:55 PM nator has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 184 of 198 (292471)
03-05-2006 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by robinrohan
03-05-2006 4:55 PM


Re: Living fallaciously
Applying logic, formally or informally is sufficient to solve the problem posed by the cards. So your "real-world logic" is not even the informal application of logical thinking. All the problem requires is the ability to consider the possible results of turning over each card and identifying whether one of them could contradict the proposition.
Indeed at this point I have to ask what possible result could falsify your position.h

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by robinrohan, posted 03-05-2006 4:55 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by robinrohan, posted 03-05-2006 5:24 PM PaulK has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 185 of 198 (292472)
03-05-2006 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by robinrohan
03-05-2006 4:55 PM


Re: Living fallaciously
quote:
I'm talking about real-world logic.
I'm talking about "real world" logic too, because there is no difference between it and formal logic.
Logic is logic no matter where it occurs. That's the neat thing about it.
That you don't understand this fact is yet another indication that you do not understand the issues in this thread.
If you are trying to argue that when given carefully constructed logic problems in a research setting, people are bad at logic, but when thrown into the messy real world to deal with practical issues people are naturally very good at logic, boy are you wrong. The volume of research on how both patients and medical personnel make logical errors in interpreting diagnostic data is staggering (and scary).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by robinrohan, posted 03-05-2006 4:55 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by robinrohan, posted 03-05-2006 5:19 PM nator has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 186 of 198 (292475)
03-05-2006 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by docpotato
03-05-2006 4:52 PM


Re: Built in logic
YOu raise a good point. The basic concepts of logic are built into language - although they are usually not rigorously applied. (By the basic concepts I mean negation, conjunction and disjunction - as well as the concept of "truth").
On the other hand logic can be reagarded as a formalisation of these basic principles of language.
IMHO the latter view is more accurate. The basic logical principles we find in language are there because they are useful - they give the language a good deal of power that it would not otherwise have. Logic, then, is derived from formalising and rigourously applying the principles adopted for more pragmatic reasons.
e

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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 187 of 198 (292478)
03-05-2006 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by nator
03-05-2006 5:10 PM


Re: Living fallaciously
That you don't understand this fact is yet another indication that you do not understand the issues in this thread.
I think I understand the issues fairly well. And I can tell you that when presented with a fallacy, people recognize it.
What happens is that people don't THINK in real world situations. Take my example of the "great artist":
All great artists have a lot of women.
I have a lot of women.
Therefore, I am a great artist.
If my friend had been able to realize that this was the idea he was living by, he would have recognized immediately the fallacy involved.
In fact, he did recognize it eventually.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by nator, posted 03-05-2006 5:10 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by nator, posted 03-05-2006 5:47 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 191 by crashfrog, posted 03-05-2006 5:56 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 188 of 198 (292482)
03-05-2006 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by PaulK
03-05-2006 5:08 PM


Re: Living fallaciously
Indeed at this point I have to ask what possible result could falsify your position
If I had a class of students that couldn't recognize the fallacy of the undistributed middle term, that would falsify it. In 20 years, that has not happened.
Therefore, I am right.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by PaulK, posted 03-05-2006 5:08 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 193 by crashfrog, posted 03-05-2006 5:57 PM robinrohan has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 189 of 198 (292488)
03-05-2006 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by robinrohan
03-05-2006 5:24 PM


Re: Living fallaciously
YOu are still beign very vague. If you are claiming that most people can recognise obvious fallacies when presented with them in a classroom situation then your point seems very trivial. Especially as I do not believe you can rightly call the classroom a "real-world" situation while at the same time attacking a test on the grounds that it is abstracted rather than grounded in everyday activities.
On the other hand we see all sorts of fallacious logic being presented.
Such as THis
quote:
You are free to believe whatever you want to. You can even believe Dan Brown's FICTION, Da Vinci Code. That does not change The authenticity of the Bible one bit. Many kings and rulers tried to destroy this book. They all failed. Inspite of all these, Bible is still a best seller.
Not only do we have a blatant appeal to popularity the author fails to notice that he is simultaneously attacking another best-seller.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by robinrohan, posted 03-05-2006 5:24 PM robinrohan has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 190 of 198 (292493)
03-05-2006 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by robinrohan
03-05-2006 5:19 PM


Re: Living fallaciously
If you are trying to argue that when given carefully constructed logic problems in a research setting, people are bad at logic, but when thrown into the messy real world to deal with practical issues people are naturally very good at logic, boy are you wrong. The volume of research on how both patients and medical personnel make logical errors in interpreting diagnostic data is staggering (and scary).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by robinrohan, posted 03-05-2006 5:19 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by robinrohan, posted 03-05-2006 5:57 PM nator has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 191 of 198 (292495)
03-05-2006 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by robinrohan
03-05-2006 5:19 PM


Re: Living fallaciously
And I can tell you that when presented with a fallacy, people recognize it.
Apparently not; you've consistently ignored your own fallacious thinking.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by robinrohan, posted 03-05-2006 5:19 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by robinrohan, posted 03-05-2006 5:59 PM crashfrog has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 192 of 198 (292496)
03-05-2006 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by nator
03-05-2006 5:47 PM


Re: Living fallaciously
If you are trying to argue that when given carefully constructed logic problems in a research setting, people are bad at logic, but when thrown into the messy real world to deal with practical issues people are naturally very good at logic, boy are you wrong. The volume of research on how both patients and medical personnel make logical errors in interpreting diagnostic data is staggering (and scary).
I think you said this before. Why are you repeating yourself? Are you a broken record?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by nator, posted 03-05-2006 5:47 PM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by crashfrog, posted 03-05-2006 5:58 PM robinrohan has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 193 of 198 (292497)
03-05-2006 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by robinrohan
03-05-2006 5:24 PM


Re: Living fallaciously
If I had a class of students that couldn't recognize the fallacy of the undistributed middle term, that would falsify it. In 20 years, that has not happened.
So, you're rebutting a claim that people do not recognize logical fallacies unles educated about them with an observation of educated persons recognizing logical fallacies?
Does that seem logical to you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by robinrohan, posted 03-05-2006 5:24 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by robinrohan, posted 03-05-2006 6:02 PM crashfrog has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 194 of 198 (292498)
03-05-2006 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by robinrohan
03-05-2006 5:57 PM


Re: Living fallaciously
I think you said this before. Why are you repeating yourself?
Probably because it doesn't seem to sink in with you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by robinrohan, posted 03-05-2006 5:57 PM robinrohan has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 195 of 198 (292499)
03-05-2006 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by crashfrog
03-05-2006 5:56 PM


Re: Living fallaciously
Apparently not; you've consistently ignored your own fallacious thinking.
Funny.
Obviously, Crashfrog, my fallacy has not been presented clearly to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by crashfrog, posted 03-05-2006 5:56 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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