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Author Topic:   Can those outside of science credibly speak about science?
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 136 of 198 (292356)
03-05-2006 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by Faith
03-05-2006 11:09 AM


Re: OK, if you think logic is so natural
Faith,
What a bunch of BS you evos are pulling today, on this thread and on that pathetic excuse for a conversation about the flood I'm sorry I gave a second thought to.
It's not a conversation about the flood, it's a place where you are supposed to show the "staggering" evidence in support of it, rather than ad hoc excuses. You haven't even bothered to address the OP that torpedos what you thought was evidence.
And you accuse evo's of pulling BS!? Please don't judge us by your logicless standards.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Faith, posted 03-05-2006 11:09 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Faith, posted 03-05-2006 11:42 AM mark24 has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 137 of 198 (292358)
03-05-2006 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by mark24
03-05-2006 11:35 AM


Re: OK, if you think logic is so natural
I have no interest in proving anything. That's why I'm sorry I bothered to answer your ridiculous challenge. I gave my thoughts and that's all I care to do. Your idiotic idea that cladistics is anything other than a self-validating begging of the question tells me all I need to know about "science."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by mark24, posted 03-05-2006 11:35 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Asgara, posted 03-05-2006 11:48 AM Faith has replied
 Message 143 by mark24, posted 03-05-2006 12:15 PM Faith has replied

docpotato
Member (Idle past 5047 days)
Posts: 334
From: Portland, OR
Joined: 07-18-2003


Message 138 of 198 (292359)
03-05-2006 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by robinrohan
03-05-2006 11:34 AM


Re: Built in logic
Sentence structure seems logical to me.
Curious: Does it seem equally logical to you in languages foreign to you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by robinrohan, posted 03-05-2006 11:34 AM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Faith, posted 03-05-2006 1:42 PM docpotato has replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 139 of 198 (292361)
03-05-2006 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Faith
03-05-2006 11:42 AM


Re: OK, if you think logic is so natural
Faith, you "have no interest in proving" your side, you seem to have no interest in listening to the other side. May I ask why you are here at EvC at all?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Faith, posted 03-05-2006 11:42 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by robinrohan, posted 03-05-2006 12:05 PM Asgara has not replied
 Message 147 by Faith, posted 03-05-2006 12:26 PM Asgara has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 140 of 198 (292363)
03-05-2006 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Faith
03-05-2006 10:56 AM


Re: OK, if you think logic is so natural
If I want to prove whether an even number is always backed by a primary color I'm going to have to check the even number, the primary color and the nonprimary color.
Classic confirmation bias. If you turn over the primary coloured card no matter what was on the other side it wouldn't help you. It could be an odd number, but that wouldn't falsify the position. Therefore turning it over will either support the proposition OR it will support it. Turning it over will reveal no new information.
The test shows how people 'instinctively' look for tests that seem to confirm the proposition, not ones that necessarily test the truth of the proposition. I think the point of it coming up here was to show that logic is not entirely a natural gift of humans.
The DICTIONARY defines logic as thinking, for heaven's sake, defines it as REASONING. What's with you guys with your insistence on your specialized definition? Obviously you just aren't interested in discussion.
This came up originally because you said
Of COURSE we all think logically
If you were saying that "Of COURSE we all think thinkingly", or "Of COURSE we all think employing reason" you can understand why people might get confused. Especially since the discussion between robinrohan and Schraf was about formal logic (ie the specialized definition). See Message 28 for confirmation that this was the subject of their discussion.
I don't see this as unwillingness to discuss anything, but a confusion brought about when you joined the discussion in Message 86, using a different definition for logic than had been agreed on, without letting anybody know. Less than charitable people would be inclined to call this equivocation, but I'm fairly sure it was a simple accident.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Faith, posted 03-05-2006 10:56 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Faith, posted 03-05-2006 12:37 PM Modulous has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 198 (292366)
03-05-2006 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Asgara
03-05-2006 11:48 AM


Re: OK, if you think logic is so natural
Faith, you "have no interest in proving" your side, you seem to have no interest in listening to the other side. May I ask why you are here at EvC at all?
Faith is here to improve her vocabulary.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Asgara, posted 03-05-2006 11:48 AM Asgara has not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 142 of 198 (292367)
03-05-2006 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Faith
03-05-2006 10:56 AM


Re: OK, if you think logic is so natural
The DICTIONARY defines logic as thinking, for heaven's sake, defines it as REASONING.
Which dictionary?
Here is the online definition from Logic - definition of logic by The Free Dictionary. It's a bit more complex than just "thinking" or "reasoning".
The word "logic" is actually used in a variety of ways. Sometimes it is applied to common sense reasoning, and sometimes it is considered distinct from common sense reasoning.
In technical use, it is a rule based deductive system, such as used by mathematicians and mathematical logicians.
Some people believe that thinking is just logic. In my opinion they are badly mistaken.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Faith, posted 03-05-2006 10:56 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by robinrohan, posted 03-05-2006 12:33 PM nwr has replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 143 of 198 (292369)
03-05-2006 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Faith
03-05-2006 11:42 AM


More evidence humans aren't logical... Just read anything Faith writes...
Faith,
I gave my thoughts and that's all I care to do.
That's all you ever do, but when you claim to have evidence, you will be called on it. Do us all a favour, Faith, if you can't play big-boy's science supporting your position with evidence: Shut up & say nothing at all.
Your idiotic idea that cladistics is anything other than a self-validating begging of the question tells me all I need to know about "science."
It isn't begging the question because you don't have to assume the conclusion in order to accept the premises. Who's the idiot, Faith? Me, who knows what it is, or you, who are so ignorant of logic you are still misciting circular arguments?
Aren't you embarrassed?
Your god-glasses doesn't allow you to grasp the rather obvious truth that all science that makes correct predictions should not be dismissed as irrelevent. Don't you realise the utter hypocrisy & self-defeating absurdity of making a test of anything & then dismissing it as self-validating? Are Faraday's, Newtons, Boyles etc. areas of science to be dismissed because they are self validating? That is, the predicted data actually does exist?
That's why you don't use a television, Faith, because all the science behind it is self validating. That's why you never take medicine, because all the science behind it is self-validating. That's why you never ride in a car, let alone a train or an aircraft. Those silly scientists are using self-validated theories, & you aren't fooled, are you? No people made correct hypotheses that when tested were validated, only to be dissmissed as self-validating by you!
Even your beloved flood evidence, if you had any, would be self-validating, if you had any, that is.
What a stupid, stupid thing to say. What you need, Faith, is a sense of shame.
"Cladistics & stratigraphy" works just like any other science, a prediction is made that is then validated by the data.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Faith, posted 03-05-2006 11:42 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Faith, posted 03-05-2006 12:18 PM mark24 has not replied
 Message 146 by AdminModulous, posted 03-05-2006 12:25 PM mark24 has replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 144 of 198 (292370)
03-05-2006 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by crashfrog
03-05-2006 11:03 AM


Re: OK, if you think logic is so natural
If we define "logic" as "thought", are we to conclude that my friend's logic software is thinking?
People sometime argue that computers do not actually do logic. Rather, people do logic, and use computer as a tool. Similarly it is sometimes argued that computers do not actually compute.
It all depends on how you are using the words, what you are trying to convey.
IMO the word "logic" is much overused.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by crashfrog, posted 03-05-2006 11:03 AM crashfrog has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 145 of 198 (292371)
03-05-2006 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by mark24
03-05-2006 12:15 PM


censored
censored
This message has been edited by Faith, 03-05-2006 12:20 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by mark24, posted 03-05-2006 12:15 PM mark24 has not replied

AdminModulous
Administrator
Posts: 897
Joined: 03-02-2006


Message 146 of 198 (292372)
03-05-2006 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by mark24
03-05-2006 12:15 PM


Respect
Always treat other members with respect.
You might be able to get away with saying this isn't ad hominem, but I don't see it is a post that is treating Faith with respect. I think it would be simple to make the same point without using language that has the potential to be upsetting. Also, you should avoid needling, hectoring and goading tactics.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by mark24, posted 03-05-2006 12:15 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 147 of 198 (292373)
03-05-2006 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Asgara
03-05-2006 11:48 AM


Re: OK, if you think logic is so natural
No you may not ask.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Asgara, posted 03-05-2006 11:48 AM Asgara has not replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 148 of 198 (292375)
03-05-2006 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by AdminModulous
03-05-2006 12:25 PM


Moderator Bias
Modulus,
She called my position idiotic, where were the mods then?
Mark
This message has been edited by mark24, 03-05-2006 12:31 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by AdminModulous, posted 03-05-2006 12:25 PM AdminModulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by AdminModulous, posted 03-05-2006 12:31 PM mark24 has replied

AdminModulous
Administrator
Posts: 897
Joined: 03-02-2006


Message 149 of 198 (292376)
03-05-2006 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by mark24
03-05-2006 12:29 PM


There is a thread for such questions
Take it there

New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
General discussion of moderation procedures
Thread Reopen Requests
Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum
Other useful links:
Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC and Assistance w/ Forum Formatting

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by mark24, posted 03-05-2006 12:29 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 150 of 198 (292377)
03-05-2006 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by nwr
03-05-2006 12:10 PM


Re: OK, if you think logic is so natural
Some people believe that thinking is just logic. In my opinion they are badly mistaken
I have 20 years of empirical evidence--my poor community college students--to support my contention that logical thinking is a natural faculty.
And what I am getting here? Some tricky test that's supposed to show something. Academic ivy-tower nonsense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by nwr, posted 03-05-2006 12:10 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by nwr, posted 03-05-2006 1:27 PM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 171 by nator, posted 03-05-2006 4:21 PM robinrohan has replied

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