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Author Topic:   Why is Israel the good guys????
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 1 of 63 (62256)
10-23-2003 12:40 AM


http://www.elftor.com/elftor.php?number=166
I was just reading this and got a kick outta of it
I have been reading alot about Isreal vs. Palestine lately, what's the deal? Why is the US on Isreals side? History seems to make it obvious that they basicaly stole the land from palestine not to unlike the US once did to the native americans.
The Isrealy atrocities against palestine far outweigh palestines efforts. So what on earth is the deal? Why does the US support this country?
Is it truely religiously motivated?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Andya Primanda, posted 10-23-2003 3:18 AM Yaro has not replied
 Message 3 by PaulK, posted 10-23-2003 3:54 AM Yaro has replied

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 63 (62280)
10-23-2003 3:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Yaro
10-23-2003 12:40 AM


If you keep track of Buzsaw's prophecy discussions and Holmes' body count posts, then you might get some insight.
I'm speaking from my own point of view. Israel is a country that had been built over Palestinian land which was taken by force and violence. Sure, the Jews did reside there before. But they didn't come back in peace; instead the Zionists organized shock troops and terror groups to seize land from local Arabs, back then in 1947.
The US remains a loyal supporter to Israel... you do know that the Jewish lobby is a strong force in steering US policies? Apart from that, I suspect that some Christian groups, especially those eager to start Armageddon as soon as possible, are strong supporters of Israel. Maybe they are involved in keeping peace away from the Holy Land. Why? Because, read Buzsaw's posts, Israel is part of a prophecy. Therefore the apocalyptical groups need Israel.
And yes, I suspect it was religiously motivated.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Yaro, posted 10-23-2003 12:40 AM Yaro has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Dan Carroll, posted 10-23-2003 3:43 PM Andya Primanda has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 3 of 63 (62285)
10-23-2003 3:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Yaro
10-23-2003 12:40 AM


I think it is more complex than that. There are political reasons for supporting Israel, although they are gettign weaker.
As I understand it, much of the settlement up to the Partition was legal (although there was violence on both sides). When the Partition was implemented the neighbouring Arab states attacked - but the Israelies won and took more land. The Palestinians seem to have been stuck in the middle.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Yaro, posted 10-23-2003 12:40 AM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Yaro, posted 10-23-2003 4:05 AM PaulK has replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 4 of 63 (62286)
10-23-2003 4:05 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by PaulK
10-23-2003 3:54 AM


Yes, but should the Zionists have had a foothold in the first place?
Obviously, it was a flawed idea aimed at compensating the Jews after WWII by the britts. Then, the UN voted Isreal a state, yet never asked the arabs! I belive that was the only time the UN ever ruled a foreign minority sovreign.
What's the deal? It seems to me that the only claim to the land, is the Bible. It seems that all this Armageddon nonsense is becoming a self fullfilling prophecy. People belive it so bad, they are determined to make it happen
But I digress, if the jews were put there by way of flawed polatics, what the hell are they still doing there? It was never their land, it was taken away from the palestinians, thrugh violence, deception, and economic leverage. That just ain't right, by any stretch.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by PaulK, posted 10-23-2003 3:54 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by PaulK, posted 10-23-2003 5:12 AM Yaro has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 5 of 63 (62297)
10-23-2003 5:12 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Yaro
10-23-2003 4:05 AM


Yes, immigration was allowed in greater numbers because of the events of WWII but I am disturbed by the idea that you suggest that Zionists should have been forbidden from entering and settling altogether.
Is this really consistent with a free society ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Yaro, posted 10-23-2003 4:05 AM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Yaro, posted 10-23-2003 1:10 PM PaulK has replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 6 of 63 (62372)
10-23-2003 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by PaulK
10-23-2003 5:12 AM


Well, I dunno.
Now, please educate me if I'm wrong. But why should the Zionists have been let in? They had no claim to the land. I know Arab Jews lived there before the Zionists, and there had been a steady influx of russian Jews as well. And they were living happily side by side with the Muslims.
But then the Zionists came along and demanded a Jewish homeland. This makes no sesne! Acording to my handy dandy Encyclopedia Britanica , the story goes that the Zionists have been asking for such political recognition way back in the mid 1800's. But they were allways laughed at, even by other Jews. It was a riddiculous idea, and they faild to find sympathy.
As time went on, the dutch, offered the Zionists a whole chunk of land in Africa. Really nice land by all accounts, but the Zionists wanted Palestine. And they were wheeling and dealing with the britts to get it for a long time to no avail.
Then WWII happens, everyone feels sorry for the Jews (rightly so), and the Zionists finnaly have a reason to be given a louder voice. Now, instead of just imigrating to Palestine, and becoming part of that society as Jews had been doing for centuries, the Zionists wanted a chunk of palestine for jews only!
Tell me something, does that sound like a free society?
Anyway, to make a long story short. The Zionists founded isreal, and insidiously expanded their borders thrugh economic leverage, violence, and subterfuge. Due to lobbying, and US support, the nation of Isreal was recognized by the UN. Even though the Jews were a minority people in a predominantly muslem country.
So why do you think, the Zionists should have been allowd the land? Now, this is the history of it as I have read it. If you know more please enlighten me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by PaulK, posted 10-23-2003 5:12 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by PaulK, posted 10-23-2003 1:22 PM Yaro has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 7 of 63 (62373)
10-23-2003 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Yaro
10-23-2003 1:10 PM


So you are saying that if you don't like people's political views they should be barred from your country and forbidden to purchase land there ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Yaro, posted 10-23-2003 1:10 PM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Yaro, posted 10-23-2003 1:39 PM PaulK has replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 8 of 63 (62380)
10-23-2003 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by PaulK
10-23-2003 1:22 PM


Well, that's the thing. They were never bared from the county to begin with. Jews had been living and imigrating there for ages. But the ZIONISTS said, "we want a nice fat chunk of the good land in your country."
What if Cannada petitioned the un to anex the midwest, and call it New Canada. That's not imigration. That's just screwd up!
The Zionists belived, in their founding doctrines, that they have a claim to the land as ordained by Mosess in the Bible. That's the basis for isreal. No one was saying the Jews coulden't come to palestine and settle, it was the whole "lets found a brand new nation despite what the people who live there think" idea.
Do you understand where I'm comming from? Or am I getting the story wrong? Please let me know of any finer details I may be unware of.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by PaulK, posted 10-23-2003 1:22 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by PaulK, posted 10-23-2003 2:51 PM Yaro has replied
 Message 41 by Lizard Breath, posted 10-24-2003 11:39 PM Yaro has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 9 of 63 (62393)
10-23-2003 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Yaro
10-23-2003 1:39 PM


The Zionist movement was a secular movement founded at the end of the 19th Century, based on the view that anti-semitism made a Jewish homeland necessary. Given the history of Nazi Germany it would be hard to say that they were wrong.
The Zionists were offered - and considered - land in Uganda offered by the British Government. At this stage Zionism was a peaceful political movement encouraging Jews to move to and settle in Palestine, at that time ruled by the Ottoman Empire. The hope was to get Ottoman support for a Jewish homeland in Palestine.
From there things got slowly worse. The Jews moving in, firstly from Eastern Europe (especially after the pogroms in Russia) and later from other countries had their own prejudices. As did the Palestinian Arabs. The Zionists wanted political power and the Arabs objected to any concessions. Both sides did achieve some concessions (including a restriction on Jewish immigration, in the years leading up to and shortly after WWII) The first reference to serious violence I have found is Arab attacks on Jews, over Jewish use of the Western ("Wailing") Wall in 1929. Jewish attacks on Arabs seem to have mainly started in 1936 when the Haganah organisation moved from defending Jews to preemptive attacks. Around that time a related organisation, Irgun turned to terrorism and began attacks on British and Arab targets.
In 1948 the UN partitioned Palestine between Israel and Jordan (then Transjordan). The armies of Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon and Iraq attacked Israel. Despite being outnumbered and relatively poorly equipped isreal defeaed the attack and seized more territory (taking the opportunity to expel many Palestinian Arabs.
So yes, the Zionists did want a chunk of the country. But mostly they wanted it by peaceful political means. And many were secular, not religious.
And you re right that the Jews were never completely banned from immigrating - but isn't that what you are suggesting SHOULD have been done ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Yaro, posted 10-23-2003 1:39 PM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Yaro, posted 10-23-2003 3:38 PM PaulK has replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 10 of 63 (62396)
10-23-2003 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by PaulK
10-23-2003 2:51 PM


Ah! Thank you PaulK, for clearing up my foggy memory on some of the historical facts. It was the britts not the Dutch.
In any case, you are right, Zionisim started out as a secular movement. But the early Zionists, were soon overtaken by rabinical Jews. After WWII, the Zionist movement became a philosophy quickly adopted by religious Jews as well. And you are right, at first they wanted power thrugh political means, yet their demands, IMO, were absurd.
The idea that due to Jewsish persecution they deserve a homelands is rediculous. Should the Rom be given a chunk of Romania and India due to their persecution?
Im not saying that Imagration should have been stoped, but a Jewsish state should have never happend. The jews should have just imigrated there and become part of the palestinian culture as they had for years. They don't deserve a state just cuz they were opressed.
Why should Isreal even exist? The palestinians were there for a long time, and are the majority peoples of the region. How on earth can a foreign peoples sudden, and arbitrary, institution of a state be justified?
As I said before, If Canada or Mexico suddenly took a good chunk of the US, and decalerd it a new nation. Are we supposed to say ok... they were persecuted once. (well, maybe not Canada )

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by PaulK, posted 10-23-2003 2:51 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Percy, posted 10-23-2003 4:03 PM Yaro has replied
 Message 15 by PaulK, posted 10-23-2003 4:09 PM Yaro has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 63 (62397)
10-23-2003 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Andya Primanda
10-23-2003 3:18 AM


quote:
you do know that the Jewish lobby is a strong force in steering US policies?
It's true. I was raised Jewish, and if you piss me off I'll contact my personal Jewish lobbyist. He'll sic the Elders of Zion on your sorry ass so fast your head will spin.
You'll be out on the streets within two weeks. Guaranteed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Andya Primanda, posted 10-23-2003 3:18 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Yaro, posted 10-23-2003 3:46 PM Dan Carroll has not replied
 Message 23 by Rei, posted 10-24-2003 1:06 PM Dan Carroll has replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 12 of 63 (62398)
10-23-2003 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Dan Carroll
10-23-2003 3:43 PM


LOL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Dan Carroll, posted 10-23-2003 3:43 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 13 of 63 (62401)
10-23-2003 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Yaro
10-23-2003 3:38 PM


Hi, Yaro!
If you're really interested you might want to read a history of the region. Paul's summary was pretty good, but there's a lot more relevant information. For example, there's the Balfour Declaration, and you might be surprised when you learn just how much land the Jews had purchased in Palestine.
Addressing the thread's topic, Israel isn't the good guy. In my view there is no good guy.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Yaro, posted 10-23-2003 3:38 PM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Yaro, posted 10-23-2003 4:06 PM Percy has replied
 Message 24 by Rei, posted 10-24-2003 1:16 PM Percy has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 14 of 63 (62402)
10-23-2003 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Percy
10-23-2003 4:03 PM


Cool! Any good book sugestions you know of, on the subject?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Percy, posted 10-23-2003 4:03 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 15 of 63 (62403)
10-23-2003 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Yaro
10-23-2003 3:38 PM


For a start it's not quite that simple. Remember that there hadn't been a Palestinian state - it was a part of the Ottoman Empire up to WWI and then administered by the British. The land was being carved up anyway.
Then there was a large contingent of Jewish settlers who wanted a Jewish state. Once they've been accepted in, then they had as much right to their views and to have them heard as any other resident.
It wa the U.N. that divided the land up, and arguably they were too generous to the Zionists. But then again it was the Arab invasion that gave Israel the grounds for seizing more land and for expelling Palestinians.
If you like one of the reasons that Israel is seen as the "good guys" is that their opponents have a bad habit of making themselves look even worse.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Yaro, posted 10-23-2003 3:38 PM Yaro has not replied

  
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