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Author Topic:   Immigration Bill is Un-American
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 106 of 115 (414783)
08-06-2007 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Hyroglyphx
08-06-2007 9:35 AM


nem still not getting it.
RAZD, ciivilians of this nation have things afforded to them, because they are citizens, that non-citizens are not available to, just like you going to Nigeria, or Ukraine, or Wales, etc, wouldn't be available to you for the same reason. That doesn't mean that human decency doesn't exist.
Your argument is still based on the US compared to other countries, and NOT the US compared to what is morally justified. Please try to step up to the argument.
RAZD, I know you pine over the destruction of the US ...
You know, nem, when you post stuff like this you just look incredibly stupid, arrogant, ignorant and insulting in what you assume about others. When all else fails try the old gratuitous ad hominem eh?
How come you can't answer the simple question I've asked 3 or 4 times now nem? Is it too tough for you?
Can you tell me why it is moral and just to treat 'Person A' different from 'Person B' when the only difference is an accident of birth?
Is there a problem with comprehension?
Moreover, you never answered my question. Do you want a completely free border?
Does my OP say that? Maybe you could try reading for comprehension one of these days ...
Do you want to pay for people whether they work or not, yes or no?
What part of "[/i]We are already paying for them[/i]" DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND? You've GOT the answer in front of you -- is there a comprehension problem?
Immigration has nothing to do with terrorism.
But an open border does.
And even a completely closed border will not prevent it. Try Google News on Fort Dix. This is STILL a different issue than immigration. We are talking about immigration, and NOT whatever red herrings you bring up.
That means citizens have certain privileges that do not extend to non-residents. If someone wants to become a citizen, they can do so by going through the proper channels. So, honestly, what is the problem?
The US was built on immigration without restrictions.
Thanks for quoting my answer. Now try reading it for comprehension. Remember to include my question -- that you have yet to address:
Can you tell me why it is moral and just to treat 'Person A' different from 'Person B' when the only difference is an accident of birth?
A good question is how does the United States strike a balance between security and freedom?
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- attributed to Benjamin Franklin, with several variations:
quote:
"They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
"Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither"
"He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security"
"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither"
"People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both."
"If we restrict liberty to attain security we will lose them both."
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
"He who gives up freedom for safety deserves neither"
You can huddle in fear of terrorists if you want to. But if you try to hand my liberties and freedoms away because of your fear I get to tell you what a gullible fool you are.
How do we protect society without losing civil liberties?
With civil laws that respect those liberties ... and freedoms and rights. You base those laws on the highest standards, not just on being just a little bit better than someone else. You make civil laws that treat people with dignity and respect, from those who cannot fit in to society to those who come here looking for work. You start with basic human rights.
I'll note that when I lived in Canada I was able to work there for many years without having to become a citizen. This still gave me access to medical care and basic amenities of civilized life.
If there are people coming here to work ... then LET THEM WORK. What's the problem with that?
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : toned down

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-06-2007 9:35 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by NosyNed, posted 08-06-2007 12:14 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 113 by ThingsChange, posted 08-08-2007 9:15 AM RAZD has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 107 of 115 (414795)
08-06-2007 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by RAZD
08-06-2007 11:32 AM


Open Border Question for RASD
How come you can't answer the simple question I've asked 3 or 4 times now nem? Is it too tough for you?
You never answered whether you would have open borders (that I saw). What is your suggestion RASD?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by RAZD, posted 08-06-2007 11:32 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by RAZD, posted 08-06-2007 1:14 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 108 of 115 (414800)
08-06-2007 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by NosyNed
08-06-2007 12:14 PM


Re: Open Border Question for RASD
Message 1
This would provide a safety-net for US citizens as well as a work-to-citizenship program for immigrants.
You open the border for workers. Many workers cross the border between Canada and US every day to work.
You have a program where people earn citizenship (OP). Many may chose to work but not become citizens: that is their choice (as it was mine in Canada).
Enjoy.

Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by NosyNed, posted 08-06-2007 12:14 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 109 of 115 (415006)
08-07-2007 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by anglagard
08-06-2007 1:48 AM


Re: Reality versus talking points
Please allow me to elaborate upon what RAZD has pointed out, perhaps too subtly. On the southern border of the US there is a river called the Rio Grande that goes from one end of Texas to the other, from El Paso to Brownsville. This river is approximately half the border between the US and Mexico... Should we continue this discussion of geography? Personally, I would find it embarrassing, but then again I'm not you.
But then again, we were talking about how you said we should substitute a bridge for a wall. I already told you that only one wall exists, currently, and it spans 90 miles. That doesn't even cover half of California. I'm more than well aware of the Rio Grande, especially since I have a friend in the Border Patrol stationed in that area.
In the words of the most illustrious Carlos Mencia "Duh Duh Duh." When the so called 'minutemen' reduced the number of illegal immigrants to Arizona, half the produce rotted in the field.
That makes no sense. If they were tending crops, how were they also crossing the border in order to be run out by the Minutemen in the first place? I'm sure Carlos Mencia, a comedian, is a wealth of knowledge in some areas, but you really shouldn't take skits all that seriously.
quote:
Ah, right... because produce magically flew off the trees and into the stores before, right?
You said it, I didn't. Evidently this is your position, it is not mine.
It was either you or RAZD which strongly implied it, as if Americans are never, or were never farmers. Its silly.
quote:
In essence, they're slaves. American authorities should be doing more to put a stop to it. With this much, I'm sure we are in agreement.
Yes, my suggestion is to create a method by which illegal immigrants can be legalized, so that the work gets done and no one is taken advantage of. Are you familiar with the works and words of Cesar Chavez?
I'm familiar with some of his works. Heck, I live a few miles from a park dedicated in his honor. However, I don't know what specifically you are referencing.
quote:
So, its not as if America has a shortage of willing able field workers because they're snooty. But if you want to truly change that perception, by all means go till the ground.
First off, I call bullshit. There are $20+ per hour jobs right here right now. Why would any citizen work for minimum wage in backbreaking labor? Taking 'our jobs'
Uh, I did backbreaking labor for minimum wage not even 6 months ago because my other job at the time, which was commission-based revenue, all but stopped. Countless people next to me did it for the same disparaging wage. Hell, I even worked for an illegal alien at that time.
But help me understand something. In one instance you seemed horrified, and rightly so, that an illegal immigrant can be extorted for such a disparaging wage, but in the next moment, you say that we need them in order to get the job done. You obviously can't occupy both positions and remain consistent.
[qs]Second, you are the one arguing that illegal immigrants can somehow be stopped by a combination of a modern 'iron curtain' and a militarization of the border while I am arguing that the US should use some of that money wasted on Cheney and Halliburton to improve the conditions of a directly bordering nation.
Improve conditions where, in Mexico? Because that's where the problem originates. Can you give some suggestions on what you'd like to see?
The burden is upon you, not me, to pick the fruit as you are the one who apparently despises illegal immigrants.
I despise what it does to everyone, including themselves. Its like using a boat as an analogy. If you overload the boat, the whole thing will tip over. Not only did you not save yourself, but you killed everyone else in the process.
Indeed, the old 'America, love it or leave it" argument. Let me make this simple enough for all to understand, including you. I believe in the Constitution of the United States of America and as a veteran and patriot I will defend it against all enemies both foreign and domestic. Are you in disagreement with me?
So why don't you fight for this?
Its really sweet of you that you desire to save everyone. It really is. Obviously that is the greatest ideal. The problem is that reality is often far harsher than our dreams. There are very real problems associated with mass immigration. Making people go through the legal channels allows us to continue in that grand tradition of this nation being a nation of immigrants. No one has a problem with that.
The problem begins when mass migrants come in to the country, neglect to pay the taxes required, swamp the job market, come in unchecked in the event they are felons, etc.

"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat."
-Theodore Roosevelt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by anglagard, posted 08-06-2007 1:48 AM anglagard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by jar, posted 08-07-2007 6:39 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 110 of 115 (415024)
08-07-2007 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Hyroglyphx
08-07-2007 5:19 PM


The problem is NJ keeps repeating falsehoods
The problem begins when mass migrants come in to the country, neglect to pay the taxes required, swamp the job market, come in unchecked in the event they are felons, etc.
How is a citizen neglecting to pay taxes different from an illegal alien neglecting to pay taxes?
Have you forgotten when you were shown that illegal aliens pay taxes, in fact pay the very taxes that support the infrastructure that they use?
Every time they buy a soda they pay sales taxes that fund state, city and county governments, when they pay rent the rent goes to pay property taxes that fund schools, when they buy gas they pay fuel taxes that fund roads and bridges.
How is an illegal alien felon different than a citizen felon?
Don't you ever get tired of repeating falsehoods, particularly those that have been refuted time after time?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-07-2007 5:19 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by macaroniandcheese, posted 08-07-2007 7:34 PM jar has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 111 of 115 (415030)
08-07-2007 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by jar
08-07-2007 6:39 PM


Re: The problem is NJ keeps repeating falsehoods
also, all the illegal aliens who use fake social security numbers pay income tax and social security and don't get refunds or benefits.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by jar, posted 08-07-2007 6:39 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by jar, posted 08-07-2007 7:42 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 112 of 115 (415031)
08-07-2007 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by macaroniandcheese
08-07-2007 7:34 PM


Re: The problem is NJ keeps repeating falsehoods
Yup. Yet NJ and others keep repeating the same old canards as though they have never been refuted.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by macaroniandcheese, posted 08-07-2007 7:34 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

  
ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5926 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 113 of 115 (415104)
08-08-2007 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by RAZD
08-06-2007 11:32 AM


Re: nem still not getting it.
RAZD writes:
Can you tell me why it is moral and just to treat 'Person A' different from 'Person B' when the only difference is an accident of birth?
It depends on the scope of "treat".
If followed, your statement implies:
1. Abolish Affirmative Action
2. Flat tax for everyone
3. No quotas on immigration from any country
4. Same paperwork for anyone coming in to this country (since illegals have no paperwork, then everyone gets that)
There are billions of unfortunates whose standard of living is poor due to "accident of birth". We cannot solve their poverty. We can't even solve our own country's poverty.
The best approach is to show how a goose can keep laying golden eggs, and not to starve the goose to death and stop the flow of golden eggs.

'Liberalism is a mental disorder' - Michael Savage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by RAZD, posted 08-06-2007 11:32 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by RAZD, posted 08-08-2007 10:13 AM ThingsChange has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 114 of 115 (415113)
08-08-2007 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by ThingsChange
08-08-2007 9:15 AM


ThingsChange not getting it.
It depends on the scope of "treat".
Interestingly you did not answer the question ...
The best approach is to show how a goose can keep laying golden eggs, and not to starve the goose to death and stop the flow of golden eggs.
Other than to imply that greed, isolationism, ignoring the problem and closed doors is "moral" ...
1. Abolish Affirmative Action
Not part of the immigration issue. Start another thread if you want to discuss this. This also does not apply to people coming into this country.
2. Flat tax for everyone
Not part of the immigration issue. Start another thread if you want to discuss this. This also does not apply to people coming into this country.
3. No quotas on immigration from any country
No problem -- or are you implying there should be?
4. Same paperwork for anyone coming in to this country (since illegals have no paperwork, then everyone gets that)
Everyone gets new papers with complete identification profile (fingerprints, DNA, etc). This would also remove a roadblock for refugees that also have no paperwork.
Now, see if you can answer the question:
Can you tell me why it is moral and just to treat 'Person A' different from 'Person B' when the only difference is an accident of birth?
I'm betting you won't.
Enjoy.

Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by ThingsChange, posted 08-08-2007 9:15 AM ThingsChange has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 115 of 115 (416010)
08-13-2007 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Hyroglyphx
08-06-2007 9:35 AM


Re: Reality versus talking points
RAZD, what aren't you understanding?
Why you can't answer a simple question nem:
Can you tell me why it is moral and just to treat 'Person A' different from 'Person B' when the only difference is an accident of birth?
And if I may quote you from another thread:
Anyone with even a nominal familiarity with psychology knows that anyone that defensive about innocuous questions must have some underlying problem with the inquiry.
I think its evident at this point that perhaps you've reached some epiphany and you're just lashing out in frustration.
You can't answer the question, can you? Look, if this is making you uncomfortable, we can stop. I've never seen you this inane or flustered before.
Of course, you have all the answers eh nem?
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : anser

Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-06-2007 9:35 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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