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Author Topic:   Immigration Bill is Un-American
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 61 of 115 (407936)
06-29-2007 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by NosyNed
06-29-2007 10:42 AM


Re: Invading foreigners
NosyNed writes:
I might note that for a big part of your country the English speakers are also invaders over the existing Spanish speakers (though both were also late comers).
Oh come on, Ned. Most Americans don't even know that we got most of the southwest and California (that's over a third of this country) from Mexico through conquest and brute force. Won't you let us live in our blissful ignorance?
Added by edit.
The two times that we tried to invade Canada should be warning enough for you. Even though you kicked our asses both times, third time as a charm! Don't forget that we can cross Niagra Falls anytime now and kick your asses. Then, we can make words like oui and moi illegal... like the way the french made the word email illegal.
Edited by Tazmanian Devil, : No reason given.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 62 of 115 (407939)
06-29-2007 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by ThingsChange
06-29-2007 8:58 AM


on criminals
False. Many criminals come here to practice their lazy way of obtaining easy money and are aided by lack of enforcement and catch-and-release type of practices.
Oh come on. You do have supporting evidence to show that? You have evidence that illegal foreign criminals are lazier than native born criminals?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by ThingsChange, posted 06-29-2007 8:58 AM ThingsChange has replied

Replies to this message:
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ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5926 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 63 of 115 (408028)
06-30-2007 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by jar
06-29-2007 11:16 AM


Re: on criminals
You have evidence that illegal foreign criminals are lazier than native born criminals?
Sometimes you guys pick the weirdest things to respond to!
I said: "Many criminals come here to practice their lazy way of obtaining easy money ..."
That means: Stealing is a means of obtaining something easy instead of working for it. (I can't believe I had to explain that)

'Liberalism is a mental disorder' - Michael Savage

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Replies to this message:
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ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5926 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 64 of 115 (408029)
06-30-2007 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Taz
06-29-2007 11:05 AM


Rio Grande Canal
You're joking, right?

Yes. I responded to your sarcasm with my own.
------- Alternative answer follows ---------
Of course, I'm joking. It would not be a ecological-friendly thing to do.

'Liberalism is a mental disorder' - Michael Savage

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ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5926 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 65 of 115 (408030)
06-30-2007 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by NosyNed
06-29-2007 10:42 AM


Quebec as example of division, not unity
Nosy,
My point was about the outcome (i.e. different language and culture leads to wish for independence), and not who got there first.

'Liberalism is a mental disorder' - Michael Savage

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5926 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 66 of 115 (408035)
06-30-2007 1:21 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by RAZD
06-29-2007 10:06 AM


logic-phobic paranoia
Lots of those forged documents are also made in the US by US citizens. You also have similar problems with other groups of illegals, yet you single out mexicans: your prejudices are showing.
Grass is green.
Green is a color.
Therefore, grass is a color.
That is the kind of logic you are trying to use.
And you are so desparate to think that it must be prejudice against Mexicans if someone uses logic (correctly). So, instead of being able to debate logically you resort to name-calling. On that basis, I would surmise you are a liberal.
Let's go back to square one, to define "the problem":
1. We have enormous number of illegal aliens in the USA, and most Americans would like to stop the massive influx into the USA.
2. Most illegal aliens are from Mexico. That's not a racist statement. It's a fact.
3. Illegal aliens cross the border in massive numbers, and there are many who buy forged documents to help get jobs in America. Most of those people are from Mexico, but obviously, many are from other countries, and some even from Islamic countries.
Forgery is a crime in the USA no matter who does it.
Your twisted, defeatist logic says that if something is not perfect, then don't do it at all.
Examples of yours:
- Sometime some people can get through a fence/barrier. Therefore, don't put one up.
- Some people will speak another language. Therefore, don't make one the official language (so that government docs must be printed in multiple languages)
- Theft closes some stores, therefore we shouldn't hold that against illegal aliens

'Liberalism is a mental disorder' - Michael Savage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by RAZD, posted 06-29-2007 10:06 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 67 of 115 (408066)
06-30-2007 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by ThingsChange
06-30-2007 12:25 AM


Re: on criminals
You miss the point. Please read what I wrote, what you even quoted.
You have evidence that illegal foreign criminals are lazier than native born criminals?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by ThingsChange, posted 06-30-2007 12:25 AM ThingsChange has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 68 of 115 (408068)
06-30-2007 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by ThingsChange
06-30-2007 12:38 AM


Re: Quebec as example of division, not unity
My point was about the outcome (i.e. different language and culture leads to wish for independence), and not who got there first.
Sorry but the British Colonists who spoke the same language and shared the same culture as the folk back in Merry Olde England wished for independence.
Second, what is wrong with folk wanting Independence?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 69 of 115 (408076)
06-30-2007 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by ThingsChange
06-30-2007 1:21 AM


try dealing with the issues
That is the kind of logic you are trying to use.
Examples of yours:
- Sometime some people can get through a fence/barrier. Therefore, don't put one up.
- Some people will speak another language. Therefore, don't make one the official language (so that government docs must be printed in multiple languages)
- Theft closes some stores, therefore we shouldn't hold that against illegal aliens
Nice straw-man arguments: shows your inability to deal with the real positions.
Solve the reason for illegal immigration and you will not need a fence. We do not need one on the Canadian border.
To serve the great number of legal immigrants in this country (for whom english is not a primary language) it is best to provide legal documents and public policies in languages that are easily and fully comprehended. They can still understand english sufficient for work and play without necessarily having the comprehension for complex documents. This is treating them as valuable - and equal - members of society.
Dealing with crime solves the problem of "closed" stores, while eliminating immigrants only solves a small portion of the problem. Illegal immigration is not the cause of crime, the cause of crime is being disenfranchised from society.
... and most Americans would like to stop the massive influx into the USA.
2. Most illegal aliens are from Mexico. That's not a racist statement. It's a fact.
We also have a much longer border with Canada than with Mexico, yet we do not have as much of a problem with that border. The reason? There is less inequality between these two countries so there is less social pressure to move.
... many are from other countries, and some even from Islamic countries.
This is necessarily bad how? Or are your narrow-minded prejudices showing again? Is your argument that it is de facto bad to be a muslim?
Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by ThingsChange, posted 06-30-2007 1:21 AM ThingsChange has not replied

Replies to this message:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 70 of 115 (408082)
06-30-2007 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by RAZD
06-30-2007 10:57 AM


Fences
We do not need one on the Canadian border.
However, we are seriously considering one.

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inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6081 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 71 of 115 (414051)
08-02-2007 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by ThingsChange
06-30-2007 12:25 AM


Re: on criminals
Why is it that everyone from any other country wants to come to the US? Because, this is one of the few countries that respect individual freedom and liberties.There are many corrupt governments which are surviving by stealing from the USA. There are 40 million people without health insurance. Then there are the illegal immigrant pregnant women who receive FREE healthcare at the cost of the TAX payer.All these people who steal our benefits send their money to their old countries. How far and how long can this go? If an illegal immigrant(no license, no insurance) hits you, then you suffer.They are not even prosecuted. If you violate any law, you end up in jail whereas an illegal immigrant never gets caught. How do we know if someone is using (Stealing) our social security numbers?
The illegal immigrants have created a 2 tier justice system for us.
If the Bush-Kennedy-McCain Amnesty bill had been approved by the senate, our current deficit will add 3 TRILLION dollars in the form of Welfare.My state is going to raise the Taxes on property to give FREE meidcal care to the illegal immigrants. Where is the middle class America? It is becoming an endangered species. Why is it that every American is punished for the failure of other Governments to provide better life for its citizens?
What had happened to our industries? Where are they? Where are our well paying jobs supporting the middle class?
Well, Immigration reform is not the answer. Only answer is enforcing the laws. Every other country enforces its laws. But, we will not. Why? It is the multi national corporations that depend on cheap labor.
The only way america can survive is by taking care of its citizens first through enforcement of the law on the employers,denial of WELFARE to non immigrants and closing the borders.
If not, America will disintegrate in no time.
"Yes Liberalism is a mental disorder and all non liberals are the Victims of this Insanity".

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 72 of 115 (414064)
08-02-2007 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by inkorrekt
08-02-2007 2:47 PM


on critical thinking
Why is it that every American is punished for the failure of other Governments to provide better life for its citizens?
What had happened to our industries? Where are they? Where are our well paying jobs supporting the middle class?
I guess that comes down to your president failing to provide a better life for US citizens eh? Or are you blaming other countries for the failure of the US to provide better life for US citizens?
There are many corrupt governments which are surviving by stealing from the USA.
Every other country enforces its laws. But, we will not. Why? It is the multi national corporations that depend on cheap labor.
So you are saying that corrupt governments are doing a better job enforcing laws while they are also stealing from the USA?
The only way america can survive is by taking care of its citizens first through enforcement of the law on the employers,denial of WELFARE to non immigrants and closing the borders.
If not, America will disintegrate in no time.
I know: let's also ship back all immigrants and their descendants -- because it is not their WORKING that is the problem, it is where they are FROM. Why should someone who just happened to be BORN here get any special privileges after all?
There are 40 million people without health insurance.
Which has nothing to do with immigration, rather it has to do with your government not meeting the needs of it's people - to provide better life for its citizens.
How do we know if someone is using (Stealing) our social security numbers?
Also has nothing to do with immigration, rather it has to do with your government not meeting the needs of it's people - to provide better life for its citizens.
Instead of blaming immigration for your personal problems why not look for a real solution.
"Yes Liberalism is a mental disorder and all non liberals are the Victims of this Insanity".
Which is why we are in a failed war in Iraq? It seems to me the insanity of the Neocon side of the fence is much more detrimental to world peace than dealing with people as if they were ... oh I don't know ... PEOPLE?
Perhaps you need to think things through a little further than repeating knee-jerk responses from republican talking points? As it is you don't make sense.
Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by inkorrekt, posted 08-02-2007 2:47 PM inkorrekt has replied

Replies to this message:
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inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6081 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 73 of 115 (414152)
08-03-2007 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by RAZD
08-02-2007 3:30 PM


Re: on critical thinking
Our government is refusing to enforce the laws. That is the problem.President Bush has failed to fulfill his constitutional obligations to protect citizens of his own country from invasion by 30 million people.Kennedy-McCain-Bush are misinterpreting their refusal to implement the laws as dysfunctional immigration system. The chief of immigration(Bush appointee) has no idea of immigration at all.This immigration rights as well as its implications are not owned by either Republicans or democrats. But, this is the right of all American citizens. Non enforcement of immigration laws is adding miseries to the American people. Solution to the problem is nothing but enforcement. Bees only flock where there is honey. If there is no honey, bees will leave the flowers.
What you are suggesting is UTOPIA for all which will never be realized. So, your alternative is redistribution of wealth by destroying the middle class which is nothing but communism in action. Communism has never worked anywhere. It will never work here either. Alright go ahead and elect Hillary.Your dream will be realized at the cost of destruction of Free America.On that day, you will regret.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by RAZD, posted 08-02-2007 3:30 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 74 of 115 (414266)
08-03-2007 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by inkorrekt
08-03-2007 12:12 AM


Re: on critical thinking
Our government is refusing to enforce the laws. That is the problem.President Bush has failed to fulfill his constitutional obligations to protect citizens of his own country from invasion by 30 million people.
With the highest rate of incarceration of any developed nation -- to the point of competing (unfavorably) with totalitarian countries -- I have to wonder why you think there is less enforcement in the US than in other countries AND where you would consider putting new inmates. Concentration camps?
Solution to the problem is nothing but enforcement.
Your "solution" is a fascist dystopia that is dysfunctional and counterproductive, not surprising seeing as this kind of thinking has produced the failed "war" on drugs that has resulted in the high rates of incarceration while doing nothing to stem the drug problem. It will be equally dysfunctional and unproductive of results against immigration.
Bees only flock where there is honey. If there is no honey, bees will leave the flowers.
Actually bees flock to nectar, from which they make honey, and without the bees there would be no honey and no fertilized flowers. Cut off the bees and you ruin the honey-flower economy. Not only did you misrepresent the facts in your analogy but you got it all wrong.
Enacting and enforcing tough anti-immigration laws also does not eliminate the supply of "honey" -- rather it tries to stop the bees in mid-flight. Your poorly devised analogy fails to even represent your position.
Communism has never worked anywhere.
Depends on your definitions. What do you define as "Communism"? -- the totalitarian oligarchies of the USSR? On the other hand communes like the kibbutz have been successful.
It will never work here either. Alright go ahead and elect Hillary.
Ah, you don't really mean communism, you mean socialism. You need to stop reading conservative knee-jerk talking points and looking at reality.
Socialism mixed with democracy is very successful in several countries and has resulted in many of them providing full medical coverage for all their citizens for less per capita cost than the failed medical care in this country.
But hey, if you enjoy spending two to three times what your medical costs SHOULD be then by all means continue to vote for your reactionary candidate of choice, rather than one that is more progressive.
Your dream will be realized at the cost of destruction of Free America.
The destruction of really free America has been furthered by the current neocon administration more than any other. Both by infractions made on American freedoms and by rewarding megacorporations -- that care not one whit about people but only about profit -- with tax breaks, deregulation and other benefits.
You want to know where the middle class went? It was sold to China at Wallmart. It was outsourced to India. It was bought out by hostile takeovers of productive companies that cared about employees because they didn't produce enough profit.
And this still doesn't solve the problem of immigration ... tell me: what part of "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal ..." only applies to citizens? The world is a single unit on which nations are only temporary inhabitants. The "solution" to immigration problems will necessarily be global and not local.
Enjoy.
ps -- Hillary is not my first, second or third choice. You need to stop with knee jerk responses to conservative talking-point straw-men and reply to the arguments made instead.
Edited by RAZD, : ps

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by inkorrekt, posted 08-03-2007 12:12 AM inkorrekt has replied

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 115 (414285)
08-03-2007 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by RAZD
08-03-2007 5:24 PM


The hoped for collapse of America
With the highest rate of incarceration of any developed nation -- to the point of competing (unfavorably) with totalitarian countries -- I have to wonder why you think there is less enforcement in the US than in other countries AND where you would consider putting new inmates. Concentration camps?
I think that is a testament to how unafraid people are of the US justice system, which we have long been mocked for by countries like North Korea, China, Iran, etc.
Your "solution" is a fascist dystopia that is dysfunctional and counterproductive, not surprising seeing as this kind of thinking has produced the failed "war" on drugs that has resulted in the high rates of incarceration while doing nothing to stem the drug problem. It will be equally dysfunctional and unproductive of results against immigration.
The United States, United Kingdom, and Canada have the most liberal policies when it comes to immigration, hands down. The sheer generosity of these three nations is not only taken for granted, but its actually mocked by people such as yourself. Yet, for some reason, you don't make a similar indictment on the Mexican government that protects its southern borders with the threat of death, all the while using the Mexican-American border as a safety valve to rid itself of its poor and disenfranchised.
What exactly do you propose. Coming from your political affiliation, I have thus far heard only platitudes. Do you have an actual proposal for how we should handle the situation?
Depends on your definitions. What do you define as "Communism"? -- the totalitarian oligarchies of the USSR? On the other hand communes like the kibbutz have been successful.
Uhhh, a Kibbutz is smaller than most small towns. There is a massive disparity, that you have erroneously smuggled in, between a kibbutz and a nation the size of Cuba. There is no comparison.
Socialism mixed with democracy is very successful in several countries and has resulted in many of them providing full medical coverage for all their citizens for less per capita cost than the failed medical care in this country.
My premium is far less than I would be paying in taxes under a Socialist system. If you look at the Scandinavian countries, they pay over half of their paycheck to afford the "free" healthcare.
That's another thing. There seems to be this misconception that under a Socialist rule, health care is for free. It is not. How could it be? There are no free lunches. Who benefits from truly free health care are those who are unemployed by choice, by living off of the system designed to help them, not coddle them. But somebody has to pay for his/her doctors visit. And while the lazy reap the benefits, the hard working (wo)man is enabling the socially lecherous.
You want to know where the middle class went? It was sold to China at Wallmart. It was outsourced to India. It was bought out by hostile takeovers of productive companies that cared about employees because they didn't produce enough profit.
This, we are in total agreement. I'm not sure if you are aware, but I am in law enforcement for the USCG in the nations largest port (3rd largest in the world). Every day, it is my job to board these massive container ships coming from afar of. I see all sorts of shipping companies. But, by far, the most prevalent company coming through is China Shipping. We are giving away our jobs away by outsourcing which travails the middle class in middle class America-- which is supposed to be the backbone of the nation.
And this still doesn't solve the problem of immigration ... tell me: what part of "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal ..." only applies to citizens?
ALL human beings are entitled to certain unalienable rights, whether they are citizens or illegal immigrants. They are entitled to health services here, food, shelter, etc, regardless of race, sex, creed, religious affiliations, nationality, etc, before they deported.
That illustrious motto does not mean that non-citizens are entitled to every single right as the citizen is. Perhaps you need to visit a hostile foreign country and then complain about America's generosity.

"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat."
-Theodore Roosevelt

This message is a reply to:
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